Spa2k wrote

A real M enthusiast would say the answers are "all of the above," because it's not up to you or me or anyone else to make that decision for anybody but ourselves.

Reading some of these responses, I have a clear understanding WHY BMW has continued to not care and dilute the M brand.

Because their customers don't care.

You've got guys here who claims to be live long BMW fans not knowing the mighty E30 M3 came with a truly unique S-designate engine. You've got people who can't fathom that a manual can still be offered with cars that comes with automatic or DCT transmissions, but insist that because autos or DCT or whatever transmission is FASTER that the joy of being able to shift and the choice to do so is take away from you.

The M2 can run circles around the E30 M3. That's true. But the M2 will NEVER be as successful as the E30 M3 in what BMW built its brand on, RACING, or what the ///M used to stand for, Motorsports. Why? Because the M2 is a watered down version of what ///M used to stand for, and frankly by what I see here, it is entirely JUSTIFIED.

So someone mentioned that BMW changed because time's changing? It's not the time that changed. It's the shifting demographic that changed. We went from generations of enthusiast where a simple set of core values that define who the brand is, to a generation of "enthusiasts" that cares little besides the HP that their car puts out and the little badge that is on the back of the car. We've basically become a bunch of Toyota Camry enthusiasts that has more money, that's all*.

In the mean time, BMW is catering to that core set of "enthusiasts." Is offering a manual as an option in all ///Ms, as was the mandate 15 years ago, going to alienate those of you who can't do the three pedal dance? Yet we see the X5M, X6M, and M5 having the manually fully discontinued. Again, it wouldn't surprise me if the next M3/M4/M2 come autotragic only. I'm almost willing to compromise for a good AWD in favor of a RWD, only because I have had a Subaru WRX on track and it is like cheating, but at this point, AWD Ms out number RWD. If that's not a principle BMW can hold dear, who's to say M2/M3/M4s few generations from now won't just be FWD platforms? If BMW is willing to forgo bespoke engines and use motorsports developed, S designate engines that are designed only for Ms only, who's to say that, a short 10 years from now, we won't be seeing FWD, automatic only Ms that comes with the same engine that your run of the mill 3 series get, but just with a tune thrown on it?

Imagine a FWD 1M that comes with only an automatic and a standard B48 engine? You know it's coming. It's probably already in the pipeline.

At that point can you still really call it an M? Remember just a short 10 years ago BMW still held on to their simple credo WRT to M cars (with exception to the X5M and X6M, of course. The redheaded bastard child of the M family).

* p.s.: To be entirely honest? I think I identify myself more with Toyota now, because at least, not only have they captured the masses with their boring driving appliances, but they've also managed to hold on to their enthusiast AND reached out and captured some additional enthusiasts by providing cars like the FRS and the new Supra.

i think we care more about our wheel offsets now than the provenance of our engines...

Law wrote

FWIW you have the right idea, but have the facts wrong.

You know, as soon as I typed that and hit "submit reply" I KNEW someone was going to call me out on it.

Someone who's actually well aware of the history of BMWs here. On this forum. Wow. I did not see THAT coming.

Thank you.

Wow - I absolutely give you credit for your the strength of your convictions. You may be wrong about a lot of this, but you're never in doubt. Enjoy your new Toyota ...

Darth One wrote

i think we care more about our wheel offsets now than the provenance of our engines...

20 years from now no one will own a car, it'll all be ride sharing of cars propelled by a bunch of electrons, driven by a bunch of sensors and artificial intelligence anyway. So yeah...Moot point.

Spa2k wrote

Wow - I absolutely give you credit for your the strength of your convictions. You may be wrong about a lot of this, but you're never in doubt. Enjoy your new Toyota ...

LOL. I'm like those old guys that dreamed about the "good old days" where you come home, your wife, who doesn't have a job, and spent all day making herself look pretty, has a cold beverage ready for you and dinner served. Then after dinner you sip cognac while she does the dishes and put the kids to bed, and then give you a nice "good night" service so you can sleep good for all day of goofing off with "the boys" at work tomorrow.

Good old days, indeed. Back when cars were pure and familial roles are simple. No wonder "muscle cars" you can buy for $8,000 new back then are worth $250,000 now.

Look. I'm just jonesing for the days when the letter "///M" on the back of the car actually used to mean SOMETHING. Instead, now on my SECOND mid-life crisis I'm looking at something with a stupid flat fish that killed Steve Irwin on the side of the fender to fill my car-lationship needs.

The closest "BMW" that I will likely buy in the next 5 years wear a Toyota badge.

The HACK wrote

You know, as soon as I typed that and hit "submit reply" I KNEW someone was going to call me out on it.

Someone who's actually well aware of the history of BMWs here. On this forum. Wow. I did not see THAT coming.

Thank you.

That's about as dumb as forgetting that the E30 M3 engine was "bespoke"

It's too bad that we can't all be as intelligent as you.

You guys are going at it pretty strong. I also have been driving BMWs for over 45 years. I can tell you my current M2 is as much an M car as my previous E46 M3. The M2 is a beast both on the street and on the track and is a big improvement over my M3.

///M or BMW has never been exclusive... wtf are you guys talking about. They are mass produced and always have been...

If you want exclusive better start looking at Pagani or other hand build cars... and stop looking at Mass produced euro trash cars...

redline9001 wrote

///M or BMW has never been exclusive... wtf are you guys talking about. They are mass produced and always have been...

If you want exclusive better start looking at Pagani or other hand build cars... and stop looking at Mass produced euro trash cars...

No what you really want is a Morgan. Beautiful handmade English car that hasn't changed it shape in decades.

All I know is I miss my V10 M6-a screamer with great handling. Still, my M5 Comp package is very fast but way more scientific,and not as fun. That's progress!

Spa2k wrote

Where does it say that in order to be an "official" M that a car produced by BMW has to have a particular engine, a power dome hood and mirrors that look like Spock's ears? It seems to me that if a model goes through the BMW M design, engineering and manufacturing process and has a capital M followed by a single whole number on the tail, it's a real M.

There was a forum that started and it showed a picture from BMW what they intended to do in terms of "M" design elements. I cant find it right now, but as soon as i do, ill share the link.

I mention the engine designation because you have people who don't want to change. That want to know they are spending extra money for a reason. I own an M2 and I enjoy the hell out of it. I can compromise, some cant. And the M features help people see a difference. I own an E60 M5, you know how many E60 5 series "M5 clones" that I have seen that still have the rectangular trapezoid side mirrors. Most people see "M5!", i drive buy and see a wannabe. but that is me.

JLS_397K wrote

There was a forum that started and it showed a picture from BMW what they intended to do in terms of "M" design elements. I cant find it right now, but as soon as i do, ill share the link.

I mention the engine designation because you have people who don't want to change. That want to know they are spending extra money for a reason. I own an M2 and I enjoy the hell out of it. I can compromise, some cant. And the M features help people see a difference. I own an E60 M5, you know how many E60 5 series "M5 clones" that I have seen that still have the rectangular trapezoid side mirrors. Most people see "M5!", i drive buy and see a wannabe. but that is me.

I saw that picture too. It was a drawing of the elements that make an m.

The HACK wrote

Reading some of these responses, I have a clear understanding WHY BMW has continued to not care and dilute the M brand.

Because their customers don't care.

You've got guys here who claims to be live long BMW fans not knowing the mighty E30 M3 came with a truly unique S-designate engine. You've got people who can't fathom that a manual can still be offered with cars that comes with automatic or DCT transmissions, but insist that because autos or DCT or whatever transmission is FASTER that the joy of being able to shift and the choice to do so is take away from you.

The M2 can run circles around the E30 M3. That's true. But the M2 will NEVER be as successful as the E30 M3 in what BMW built its brand on, RACING, or what the ///M used to stand for, Motorsports. Why? Because the M2 is a watered down version of what ///M used to stand for, and frankly by what I see here, it is entirely JUSTIFIED.

So someone mentioned that BMW changed because time's changing? It's not the time that changed. It's the shifting demographic that changed. We went from generations of enthusiast where a simple set of core values that define who the brand is, to a generation of "enthusiasts" that cares little besides the HP that their car puts out and the little badge that is on the back of the car. We've basically become a bunch of Toyota Camry enthusiasts that has more money, that's all*.

In the mean time, BMW is catering to that core set of "enthusiasts." Is offering a manual as an option in all ///Ms, as was the mandate 15 years ago, going to alienate those of you who can't do the three pedal dance? Yet we see the X5M, X6M, and M5 having the manually fully discontinued. Again, it wouldn't surprise me if the next M3/M4/M2 come autotragic only. I'm almost willing to compromise for a good AWD in favor of a RWD, only because I have had a Subaru WRX on track and it is like cheating, but at this point, AWD Ms out number RWD. If that's not a principle BMW can hold dear, who's to say M2/M3/M4s few generations from now won't just be FWD platforms? If BMW is willing to forgo bespoke engines and use motorsports developed, S designate engines that are designed only for Ms only, who's to say that, a short 10 years from now, we won't be seeing FWD, automatic only Ms that comes with the same engine that your run of the mill 3 series get, but just with a tune thrown on it?

Imagine a FWD 1M that comes with only an automatic and a standard B48 engine? You know it's coming. It's probably already in the pipeline.

At that point can you still really call it an M? Remember just a short 10 years ago BMW still held on to their simple credo WRT to M cars (with exception to the X5M and X6M, of course. The redheaded bastard child of the M family).

* p.s.: To be entirely honest? I think I identify myself more with Toyota now, because at least, not only have they captured the masses with their boring driving appliances, but they've also managed to hold on to their enthusiast AND reached out and captured some additional enthusiasts by providing cars like the FRS and the new Supra.

Hack, I can agree with you on most things so far. Of course we would like to see the same driving force behind BMW back then present in today market. But rules rules have changed. People communicate more, racing simulators utilize paddle shifters and DOT applies new safety standards. I think that the M2 was BMWs way of reaching to the old school era. Its simple. No complicated package choices, colors, powertrain options. Kinda like IN-N-OUTs' menu right? basic. But DOT is also responsible for more safety devices (added weight) in these cars.

FWIW - I'm a member pushing 20 years with the BMW CCA and specifically the Golden Gate chapter. Put bluntly, the people who have attended/joined/done the club activities with snobbery and elitism just come and go. They don't make friends, they don't do anything that contributes. The ones who stay, participate, etc. enrich the lives of other members, share their knowledge, etc.

It's one of THE big reasons I'm still with the club. It's full of car guys - who also happen to own *elite* cars like Lotus's, Porsche GTs or vintage BMW Z cars.

If you want to keep a car exclusive, don't sell your old one so folks like me can buy them at a discounted rate. I find it more ridiculous that people own a car developed for motorsports just to look at in front of their fancy beach house. We own driver's cars, drive them don't worry about other people. Nothing makes me happier than seeing someone else driving an M car like it was meant to.

it is funny to read Hack's rants and imagine them being delivered by Roger Murdock, though.

I don't know if it's already been said, but look... If you want an exclusive ride there's no better way than to do it yourself. Just look at some of the amazing m cars other members of this forum drive! Modifying your car to reflect your own individual taste is immensely rewarding (although expensive) and you will have something truly unique afterwards.

percychow wrote

FWIW - I'm a member pushing 20 years with the BMW CCA and specifically the Golden Gate chapter. Put bluntly, the people who have attended/joined/done the club activities with snobbery and elitism just come and go. They don't make friends, they don't do anything that contributes. The ones who stay, participate, etc. enrich the lives of other members, share their knowledge, etc.

It's one of THE big reasons I'm still with the club. It's full of car guys - who also happen to own *elite* cars like Lotus's, Porsche GTs or vintage BMW Z cars.

That's exactly why I have been active with BMW CCA for 38 years. When the E46 M3 first came out, we had a bunch of young guys who showed up with their new, "elite" M3s, but they didn't last long. The chapter members didn't treat them a special and they moved on. I have hundreds o close friends today that were all made through chapter activities.

Living in the Bay Area my neighborhood is covered in M cars

OMG 8 pages of this. I need to get a life. And a few stick-on M insignias, just to hack off the elites. Hadn't realized just how potent an ass-rasher those could be.

My E90 M3 ZCP is basically my business-friendly commuter - even with 600HP, fully built motor and KW coilovers. The M is nice, it’s fast, it’s family friendly, but it’s not exclusive or hard core really. My Evo is more hard core, and my McLaren more exclusive and head turning (and hard core).

BMW are in it to make money - they will leverage that badge as any mass car producer would in any way possible to increase revenues. New drivers are consistently seeing cars as an A-to-B device, and for them the electrified car share fleet cannot arrive quick enough.

If you want proof that they don’t really care about enthusiasts any more, look no further than the dogged refusal to acknowledge our rod bearing issue... enthusiasts really are not a large enough market to care about for a behemoth like BMW.

Thanks!

S.