clee1982 wrote

wonder what's ZF going to do when car switch to electric in big numbers (i.e. no transmission)

ZF is heavily involved in the development of electric drive trains.
And its a myth that an electric drive train doesnt have a transmission.
They dont have a transmission in the sense that multiple gear ratios are switched in one order or another but there is still a transmission path of power from the motor to the wheels. (usually involving cogs)
There are currently no EV cars commerically available that have electric motors directly attached to the wheels (so that the motor is in the wheel hub).
And ZF also can make an electric motor of course.

EV's might turn out to be a hugely expansion of ZF's assets. The most innovative companies will probably benefit the most of a transition to ev's, and ZF is pretty innovative
For instance they started the trend of high # geargearratio gearboxes where multiple ratio's are used in series to get to one final ratio. That way of designing led other manufacturers to copy ZF.

And more from ZF regarding EV and their commitment to the technology.

https://www.zf.com/products/en/cars/home/cars.html

In short, they don't just build transmissions!

duky wrote

I wonder why BMW doesnt just buy ZF. I'm sure it has been considered! They seem to make really awesome transmissions but perhaps having that as an exclusive is not a differentiator enough with most customers to make the ROI make sense.

All the automakers used to have their own in-house parts makers that they are still trying to divest. US OEM's divested a decade ago, in japan and Europe they are doing it more slowly.

It's not economical to distract from their core business.

clee1982 wrote

wonder what's ZF going to do when car switch to electric in big numbers (i.e. no transmission)

ZF is well poised to succeed regardless of propulsion technology. They make chassis, drivetrain, electronics, and system components that will apply to EV's as well.

MUFCbmwbear wrote

Strong anti Monopoly laws maybe?

Those don't exist

BM dnobagaV wrote

MUFCbmwbear wrote

Strong anti Monopoly laws maybe?

Those don't exist

You're not from Europe, are you?

I think he means to say that they're monopoly laws, not anti monopoly laws.
But his post initially started me thinking too (and I don't know what the correct syntaxis is in this case)

GuidoK wrote

Ok I didnt know that. But VAG also builds lots of their own transmissions afaik in multiple factories in spain, germany, china... (something that bmw completely doesnt).

But of course volkswagen has been using zf clutches since prehistoric times so although the gearbox may come from another manufacturer, there isnt a volkswagen anywhere that is free from ZF parts

While I don't doubt that, the VW DSGs are BorgWarner designs licensed by VW. Much like how Chrysler makes the 845RE transmission which is a licensed version of the ZF 8HP. In America, at least, that covers most of their transmissions. Some older VW automatic transmissions were made by Renault. Maybe they still make their manual transmission?

Have you guys ever tested a Mercedes latest gen 9 gear gearbox ? I drive an Alpina D3 (F31), which seems to have quite a good version of the all know ZF8, but still I find that Mercedes box better.

Just curious about what you guys think.

Sounds like the push is on to kill all cars running on dead dinosaurs

Has the zf8 transmission improved since 2016?

Well it makes sense. BMW has always had getrag and ZF transmissions but some penny pincher is probably patting himself on the back for this.

ONE transmission for nearly every vehicle in the bmw like up. M car, SUV, hybrid, 340i. This means BMW is able to place one big order and get a big price drop per transmission.

The cost is you now have ZF8s in every car. NO DCT. No manual. And I'll remind everyone that if the Getrag SMG unit had a modern computer it would be faster than anything on the market.

Yet, BMW costs go up and parts and labor go down

clee1982 wrote

wonder what's ZF going to do when car switch to electric in big numbers (i.e. no transmission)

That is exactly why bmw made its biggest order with ZF And partially why they went away from dcts even on their M vehicles.They both have an incentive to keep transmissions and engines, both of their bread and butter. They have dumped millions into r&d for engines and cars designed around them and that possibly hasn't completely amortized off the books yet.

duky wrote

I wonder why BMW doesnt just buy ZF. I'm sure it has been considered! They seem to make really awesome transmissions but perhaps having that as an exclusive is not a differentiator enough with most customers to make the ROI make sense.

Trend of shifting to EV/Hybrid technologies, it made sense that bmw collaborate with toyota as they have extensive experience in automotive ev/hybrid technology and as for ZF, there are anti competition laws and also the huge capital required for buying ZF just doesnt make financial sense for bmw to acquire. Outsourcing seems to be the trend these days on cost cutting and reducing resource draining liabilities.

Let's all chip in and buy whatever is left of GETRAG! Bring back DCT and Manuals !

Such crappy gearboxes. Just feel like a traditional torque converter slushbox. Just programmed to artificially feel "sporty" but feel like junk to me. Have driven them in many different cars...

I don't take any car with a ZF gearbox seriously...

10&#34 wrote  

Such crappy gearboxes. Just feel like a traditional torque converter slushbox. Just programmed to artificially feel "sporty" but feel like junk to me. Have driven them in many different cars...

I don't take any car with a ZF gearbox seriously...

Huh? Have you driven other torque-converter autos? There are none better than the ZF for all-around smoothness and consistency in all situations. It is a great compromise between refinement, reliability, # of gears, and "sporty" driving. The M235iR race car even uses it (in a different state of tune) and I don't think anyone driving that car would complain it is slow or not sporty enough. You either don't know what you're talking about or just trolling hard. Sure, it's no DCT or manual (either of which are my preference in a real sports car), but there is no denying the vast majority of people on the public roads will be best served by the ZF 8-speed.

I first realized how good it was when cross-shopping the latest Audi A4 and Allroad a few years ago. The Allroad drove so much better with the ZF compared to the A4 with the dual-clutch.

GuidoK wrote

ZF is heavily involved in the development of electric drive trains.
And its a myth that an electric drive train doesnt have a transmission.
They dont have a transmission in the sense that multiple gear ratios are switched in one order or another but there is still a transmission path of power from the motor to the wheels. (usually involving cogs)
There are currently no EV cars commerically available that have electric motors directly attached to the wheels (so that the motor is in the wheel hub).
And ZF also can make an electric motor of course.

EV's might turn out to be a hugely expansion of ZF's assets. The most innovative companies will probably benefit the most of a transition to ev's, and ZF is pretty innovative
...

Exactly.
And they already aquired companies focused on autonomus driving.
We will not see a disruptive change of technologies but a constant shift over the next decades. The demand will not be lesser but different. There will be still enough if not even more work to do.

CP911 wrote

Huh? Have you driven other torque-converter autos? There are none better than the ZF for all-around smoothness and consistency in all situations. It is a great compromise between refinement, reliability, # of gears, and "sporty" driving. The M235iR race car even uses it (in a different state of tune) and I don't think anyone driving that car would complain it is slow or not sporty enough. You either don't know what you're talking about or just trolling hard. Sure, it's no DCT or manual (either of which are my preference in a real sports car), but there is no denying the vast majority of people on the public roads will be best served by the ZF 8-speed.

I first realized how good it was when cross-shopping the latest Audi A4 and Allroad a few years ago. The Allroad drove so much better with the ZF compared to the A4 with the dual-clutch.

plenty. it feels the same with fancy software. not for me, man.

they use these gearboxes because they are (A) cheap and (B) they don't break. otherwise they are total trash when it comes to driving enjoyment or sensation......

i'm not a huge fan of DCTs but DCTs feel night and day more fun than these ZF gearboxes.

Give me a 'slow' manual any day of the week. If i wanted to drive a torque converted slush box i'd get a 1980s Lincoln. Has no place in a modern performance car.

the reason these gearboxes don't matter anymore is because the vast majority (80%) of current "enthusiasts" don't care about the details. They lease cars for 3 years and then just buy another one. I come from the philosophy that you buy the most kickass car you can and KEEP THAT FOR YEARS and enjoy the hell out of it. Not these garage princesses that get paint protection and waxing for 80% of their time with their owners, don't get driven, come with all sorts of tech options but a crappy ZF gearbox----and then get sold to the next sucker who brags to people about his 0-60 'pull'. *pat on the back*

10&#34 wrote  

CP911 wrote

I come from the philosophy that you buy the most kickass car you can and KEEP THAT FOR YEARS and enjoy the hell out of it. Not these garage princesses that get paint protection and waxing for 80% of their time with their owners, don't get driven, come with all sorts of tech options but a crappy ZF gearbox----and then get sold to the next sucker who brags to people about his 0-60 'pull'. *pat on the back*

I'm with that!!

clee1982 wrote

wonder what's ZF going to do when car switch to electric in big numbers (i.e. no transmission)

ZF is involved with much more than just transmissions. They are one of our customers and we make mmWave radar.