[Dan B]

Originally Posted by Wolfman64

This happened in Germany and insurance coverage for liability insurance stays intact for Touristenfahrten (the kind of event they participated in).

This may or may not be the case for comprehensive insurance. Depending on the fine print, the insurance carrier and the customer, damages to their own car maybe covered or not.

Can't make a general statement about it.

That said, dedicated track insurance is the way to go...

Originally Posted by G30M

his insurance will pay for his GT3RS ! OMG I need this insurance

Just watched a YT video from VINwiki. Ray from Ringfreaks talks about the real cost of crashing. As of this year, insurance will no longer cover crashes on ther Nurburgring. I have no idea if you can buy "track" insurance for the Ring.

[NSX2M4]

50 bucks says they both tried to file insurance claims and got denied...
Engineering saves stupid lives once again.

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by Dan B

The following statement is made from an entirely from my experience with growing up around racing, experience in competition racing as a driver, working for a world class racing school teaching these concepts, countless track days, and from my observations based on the short video.

1. The BMW may or may not have seen the Porsche.
2. As the overtaking car, you must assume the other car has not seen you.
3. The racing line was from right to left so the Porsche should have expected the move left.
4. It is the repsonsibility of the overtaking car to execute a safe pass.
5. If you are being overtaken be predictable. Follow the racing line.
6. The BMW would not even be guilty of blocking. It was a single movement and followed the racing line.
7. The single most important thing, when in doubt, do NOT try to pass someone. This is not a race. Be patient.

I would assign 100% of the blame to the Porsche. They were the overtaking car and they tried to pass at the apex.

Sure, the BMW could have stayed right but as harsh as this sounds, it was not their responsibility. They can tool along on the racing line and at most, they can be stopped by the Ring marshals.

Please remember, not everyone is as good a driver as you are. Even if you are running in an "experienced" run group. I have seen stupid shit at every level.

My final thought is, if you are participting in a track day and there is a slower car in front of you, you have a few choices.

1. Wait for the point-by.
2. Do a drivethrough of the pits to put space between you and the other car
3. Wait till they see you and then give you the point-by
4. Make an ill advised pass.

In every track day I have been part of, you would be in more trouble than the slower car. They would be reminded of paying attention, and you would be reminded of the passing rules and maybe even be sent home.

I would totally agree with you, if it where a trackday! But is wasn't.

People seem to have some trouble understanding the unique position Touristen Fahrten has on the Nürburgring with it's distinctive set of rules (German StVO, with the most important two rules overtake only on the left and stay as much to the right side of the road as you can). It's not a trackday!

For instance, if you start talking about racing lines on a Touristen Fahrten lap, you've completely missed it. There is as much of a racing line as there is on a public road. Sure, you can drive spirited and try to be an amateur racing driver, might be a bit easier on the Nürburgring being one way and there is no oncomming traffic, but when things go south doing so, you are in big trouble.

If you want to do racing lines, book a trackday. Also possible on the Nürburgring but not on Touristen Fahrten days.

[Dan B]

Originally Posted by fs1977

I would totally agree with you, if it where a trackday! But is wasn't.

People seem to have some trouble understanding the unique position Touristen Fahrten has on the Nürburgring with it's distinctive set of rules (German StVO, with the most important two rules overtake only on the left and stay as much to the right side of the road as you can). It's not a trackday!

For instance, if you start talking about racing lines on a Touristen Fahrten lap, you've completely missed it. There is as much of a racing line as there is on a public road. Sure, you can drive spirited and try to be an amateur racing driver, might be a bit easier on the Nürburgring being one way and there is no oncomming traffic, but when things go south doing so, you are in big trouble.

If you want to do racing lines, book a trackday. Also possible on the Nürburgring but not on Touristen Fahrten days.

I undertand what you are saying, but there is what is supposed to happen, and what really happens.

In this instance, both drivers were treating this as a lapping session and 100% driving the racing line.

Most drivers treat Touristen Fahrten as a "track" experience. They drive the racing line in a spirited fashion. I would challenge you to find a video of people driving the right side the majority of the time. I would bet if you sit at a corner for an entire day, 100% of the cars are "racing".

Regarless, points 2, 4, and 7 are still valid regardless of how people are diving.

[fs1977]

I don't have to watch the video's, I've been plenty of times myself and I agree, most drive in spirited fashion and treat it as a track experience. And points 2,4 and 7 are valid in all traffic.

But also, most people give room for faster cars behind them and they will drive to the right to let them past. But precisely because it is not formally a track day, the question of guilt and blame is very different as it would be on a trackday. Police would be involved in this accident and I'm 100% sure just turning in to the left is going to be an issue for the BMW driver.

And as stated before, atmosphere, character and mentality during TF have changed and not for the better.

[M5Rick]

Let's remember the 911 was hit at the rear, M2 chap should have had at least some spatial awareness before doing that suicide manoeuvre, I'm afraid some of you are wrong.
If the 911 driver would have been killed then the M2 driver would be in custody awaiting a manslaughter charge.

[noemon]

Even according to TF rules 100% of the blame lies with the Porsche. And let’s take this step by step. The one and only argument against the M2 is that it allegedly moved from the left lane to the right lane, and then back to the left. But that is very clearly a misconception due to the camera positioning in the LHD Porsche, compared to the RHD M2. Even from the Porsche camera POV, you can see that the Porsche has no space and hence why it goes to the curb, lifts and hits the M2. The M2 was positioned exactly in the middle of the track, which means that half the car was in the left lane. Hence why the Porsche had to go to the curb.

It is the Porsche that hit the M2, and not the other way around. This is also very clear from the rings camera POV. Lastly, just because the Porsche had the momentum and the speed to marginally overtake the M2 before it hit it, it does not mean the M2 is at fault.

The M2 did not make any manouvre, it did not move at all actually towards the left(the reason it appears so from the Porsche POV is because of the curvature of that section, the positioning of the porsche and the fact that is a left corner), it merely held its ground inside a LEFT corner, the Porsche made the deadly maneuvre right into the M2's dead spot and indeed if someone had died the Porsche would be in custody for manslaughter.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by noemon

Even according to TF rules 100% of the blame lies with the Porsche.

for crashes in Nurburgring, blame is apportioned by the courts. based on historical including recent cases, any party who were driving above 130kph (deemed as German 'safe' highway speed) have been apportioned a share of the blame. so does anyone know how fast the BMW was going ...

the porsche is getting a share, because he was definitely over 130.

not sure how long before the courts will look at this ... someone might know ...

[noemon]

Porsche is doing 189kph in the apex and the BMW is a nose ahead in the corner.

So I guess both will be apportioned blame based on speed, however this image, makes things very clear for me at least on who is to blame.

As it shows that the Porsche has no space to overtake, the BMW is ahead of it and they are both already inside the corner as the Porsche is behind and is already touching the apex.

[Gaffer_H]

German engineering at its best, talent at its worst.

[fs1977]

noemon

To be honest, the first two stills you've posted don't really help your case. In the first one there's room enough to overtake and in the second there's not anymore and the BMW's nose points inwards. That's suggesting that the BMW did really turn in while the Porsche was already halfway beside him. In my opinion, there was room to overtake untill the gap was closed and if the BMW driver had used his mirrors he wouldn't have closed that gap.

But just to be clear, personally I also wouldn't have made that passing like the Porsche did, better to be more defensive at speeds like that. And I think most of us here agree on that. Discussion is only about who is more at fault according to the rules in place.

[noemon]

Originally Posted by fs1977

noemon

To be honest, the first two stills you've posted don't really help your case. In the first one there's room enough to overtake and in the second there's not anymore and the BMW's nose points inwards. That's suggesting that the BMW did really turn in while the Porsche was already halfway beside him. In my opinion, there was room to overtake untill the gap was closed and if the BMW driver had used his mirrors he wouldn't have closed that gap.

But just to be clear, personally I also wouldn't have made that passing like the Porsche did, better to be more defensive at speeds like that. And I think most of us here agree on that. Discussion is only about who is more at fault according to the rules in place.

I dont see any room to overtake in any of the images I posted. Nor do I find it possible for the M2 to see the Porsche in his dead spot inside the apex of a left corner, no matter how hard you look in the mirrors at 190kph while a car is hiding inside your dead spot and you re already turning.

It is quite unfathomable actually that a car would sneak up in there in the apex.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by noemon

It is quite unfathomable actually that a car would sneak up in there in the apex.

for a Brit yes

for someone who's watched hours of Ring footage, no lol. these guys are crazy!

unfortunately M2 driver is a Brit!

one day someone's going get killed ...

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by G30M

for a Brit yes

for someone who's watched hours of Ring footage, no lol. these guys are crazy!

unfortunately M2 driver is a Brit!

one day someone's going get killed ...

Look up the death toll for the 'Ring, most are during the 'tourist drive' sessions.

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by noemon

I dont see any room to overtake in any of the images I posted. Nor do I find it possible for the M2 to see the Porsche in his dead spot inside the apex of a left corner, no matter how hard you look in the mirrors at 190kph while a car is hiding inside your dead spot and you re already turning.

It is quite unfathomable actually that a car would sneak up in there in the apex.

Mayby I have the wrong glasses, but there is more than a car width in the first still. And it's not that the Porsche just spawns behind or beside the BMW. He is closing in and there was plenty of time to notice him and notice the he was quit a bit faster if using your mirrors. That would be a sign to make room. It's just that the BMW driver is to occupied with racing lines and hitting the apexes.

I also completely understand that the Porsche driver thought the BMW was giving room when you watch the vid from inside the Porsche.

[fs1977]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Look up the death toll for the 'Ring, most are during the 'tourist drive' sessions.

Every year 1 or 2 fatalities during TF. Considering the amount of cars driving and all the crazyness you see you would expect more. I wonder how it compares to daily traffic.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by fs1977

Every year 1 or 2 fatalities during TF. Considering the amount of cars driving and all the crazyness you see you would expect more. I wonder how it compares to daily traffic.

There is some confusion in what is right or wrong classing the 'Ring as a public road during these 'tourist drive' sessions. There are no speed limits on some sections of the autobahns in Germany, but the law on those is hardly comparable with that to the 'Ring on these sessions for the public to try out their cars.