my town(as well as my part of the state within a couple hundred miles of me) is basically flat. In the last 10 years, we never got more than half an inch of snow each winter, except one winter when we got 4 inches in one day, but almost all that snow melted by the next afternoon.

the night temperatures do get to the teens in the winter. but the usual is around 25 to 35. during the day, it's usually upper 30s to lower 40s. (again almost never any snow or ice at all)

I know summer tires should not be used when it's lower than 50 or 45 degrees because the rubber hardens and affect handling.

Is it actually ok to run with summer tires if I'm just commuting to/from work or the grocery in that kind of condition. Or will that destroy the summer tires?

My old 2002 Miata was a "pig on ice" with summer tires. After a short, light rain froze on 1/4 mile section of road I slid off going less than 20mph.

Short answer: No.

If it snows and temperatures dip below 40f you are endangering yourself and others around you.

Sand wrote

my town(as well as my part of the state within a couple hundred miles of me) is basically flat. In the last 10 years, we never got more than half an inch of snow each winter, except one winter when we got 4 inches in one day, but almost all that snow melted by the next afternoon.

the night temperatures do get to the teens in the winter. but the usual is around 25 to 35. during the day, it's usually upper 30s to lower 40s. (again almost never any snow or ice at all)

I know summer tires should not be used when it's lower than 50 or 45 degrees because the rubber hardens and affect handling.

Is it actually ok to run with summer tires if I'm just commuting to/from work or the grocery in that kind of condition. Or will that destroy the summer tires?

Sub-40F temps are not good for your summer tires, but that's the least of your problems.
Summer tires are worthless on ice or over snow. One winter I had to get something out of my garage and pulled my summer-tire-shod bimmer out a few feet and over and inch of fresh powder. I could not drive it back in the garage - tires spun at will and car made zero forward progress. Had to get a leaf blower to clear the powder to get it back inside. It was pathetic.

Encountering something like that while driving on public roads would have been suicidal.
Get a second set of wheels + tires, and put a set of dedicated performance snow tires on that second set. THEN you will be unstoppable.

HTH,
a

The only way I would keep summer tires on a car in your situation is if I had a warmish garage (to keep the tires above 40 degrees all winter) and if I could choose when to drive the car (and had other cars with all-season/winter tires when needed). I would even go as far as not driving on summer tires when the ground temperature is below 40 degrees, regardless of air temperature.

Go for it!

I lived at Tahoe for many years and know SoCal pretty well. Some very good points mentioned but at the end of the day the 'actual' road conditions count.

Most tyres will handle snow and ice except for at or near zero (32) and depends on water content, free water, clear ice and base adhesion etc..

You can drive safely if you have some grip (that sounds intuitive) but even the best cold weather setup can fail. It's somewhat of a science and not clear cut .. so always drive according to the conditions primarily. Many people in the hills (Sierras) miss the changeover to their winter tyres and still drive safely.

Hardening (not to the brittle point ) does not destroy tyres, of course. Melting does. My summer tyres are superior to my severe winter studless tyres in temperatures above 0C (32F). But only on asphalt, especially wet/puddles. Not on snow or (black) ice, of course. So if you drive late afternoon in the conditions described it can be fine with summer tyres. Otherwise consider all-season or mild winter tyres. Severe winter tyres should be too soft for that and wear off fast providing poor handling (especially on wet surface).

There are a number of threads on this. You are going to get two diverse opinions. About 65% of the people are going to tell you that you are insane for driving on summer tires if its 44 degrees and that you will kill yourself and lots of others, and that you should be putting winter tires on if it ever drops below 45 even 1 day a year. Then you will get about 25% of people who will acknowledge that they live in areas with mild winter climates, such as yours, where you can get some cool mornings, that you can drive your car carefully considering the conditions, dont act like a fool, and drive as if it were wet outside, and you will be fine. The other 20% of the people who drive on summer tires year round won’t respond because the judgy karen’s will come out for them.

There are many people who will drive on summers year round, know how to drive for the conditions (this is key), and have no issues. That said, drive for the conditions. Cold tires will spin easily. Be careful. They will warm up after 15 minutes and have reasonable traction for normal persons driving. They will never be warm enough in freezing temps to act like a hooligan. Don’t ever drive on snow or ice. Personally I do not drive mine when it’s in the mid 20’s or below just due to worry about tread cracking and the colder it is, the less traction they have. I’ve driven this car all last winter in KY, (never wet or snow below freezing), and have had no issues with tire cracking. The tires themselves would warm up to 80 degrees or so on the TPS sensors in 30 degree weather after about 10 minutes.

my experience is that there is roughly the same about of traction on cold summer tires as there is a mediocre normal tire in the wet. Thats what you can expect.

I’ve had a few other cars with summer tires on them before and the experience was the same.

This topic brings up my experience two years ago when I was at VIR doing a motorcycle track event. That morning, we were given an additional briefing outside of the normal track briefing that happens before we get out on track. The briefing was warning us about traction with the cold temps. It was bizarre because it was the first week of May. That morning the air temp was about 46 to 48 degrees with wind chill because the wind was howling pretty good. The briefing was about what is reasonable in pushing the traction limits of the tire when cold with these temps and incrementally as the tire picks up temp. He also discussed how much lean angle one could reasonably carry based on incremental temperature drops.

It was down right scary when I got on track not knowing when I could start reasonably leaning the bike. The tires on the bike were either the Dunlop Q3+'s or Q5s. Can't remember. While the tires are not full on race slicks and can be used on the street, they fit every definition of what a summer tire is. Being that I'm replying here or haven't said anything about a crash means I got through the sessions that day without incident.

When I drove my 135i as my daily, from the start, I had an extra set of winter tires on their own wheels I would swap in when temps drop and winter hits. Even if where I live doesn't see winter precip much or at all, I wouldn't run summer tires if I know there is a possibility of very low temps. I'd probably opt for a good set of all seasons on separate wheels to swap in. That said, I'm concerned with summer tires in pretty low temp situations is due to panic/abrupt hard braking situations. When driving on the street, you never know when you need to slam your brakes to avoid a hazard or some idiot doing something stupid.

Not advisable, everyone focuses on snow but the temps are the larger factor. Snow and ice are non-starters. In temps below 40, sure it’s possible to just commute the car in a grandma-like fashion. Some tire manufacturers warn of compound damage to the tire in low temps, even in storage. (Corvette owners found that out with Michelin).

cozye wrote

There are a number of threads on this. You are going to get two diverse opinions. About 65% of the people are going to tell you that you are insane for driving on summer tires if its 44 degrees and that you will kill yourself and lots of others, and that you should be putting winter tires on if it ever drops below 45 even 1 day a year. Then you will get about 25% of people who will acknowledge that they live in areas with mild winter climates, such as yours, where you can get some cool mornings, that you can drive your car carefully considering the conditions, dont act like a fool, and drive as if it were wet outside, and you will be fine. The other 20% of the people who drive on summer tires year round won’t respond because the judgy karen’s will come out for them.

There are many people who will drive on summers year round, know how to drive for the conditions (this is key), and have no issues. That said, drive for the conditions. Cold tires will spin easily. Be careful. They will warm up after 15 minutes and have reasonable traction for normal persons driving. They will never be warm enough in freezing temps to act like a hooligan. Don’t ever drive on snow or ice. Personally I do not drive mine when it’s in the mid 20’s or below just due to worry about tread cracking and the colder it is, the less traction they have. I’ve driven this car all last winter in KY, (never wet or snow below freezing), and have had no issues with tire cracking. The tires themselves would warm up to 80 degrees or so on the TPS sensors in 30 degree weather after about 10 minutes.

my experience is that there is roughly the same about of traction on cold summer tires as there is a mediocre normal tire in the wet. Thats what you can expect.

I’ve had a few other cars with summer tires on them before and the experience was the same.

Totally agree with cozye here! A follow-up question would be, what do you expect to gain from going with summer tires as opposed to a good all-season tire as long as it's been designed with performance and sportiness in mind? I'm a track and autocross guy, and at various times I've been forced to drive in winter conditions in summer tires, and also done an autocross or two on all-season tires when I was in-between performance cars. All seasons with a sporting design really have come a long way! Some recommended sporty choices for the X5:

• Pirelli Scorpion AS Plus 3, #2 in Crossover/SUV Touring All-Season
• Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06 Plus, #2 in Ultra High Performance All-Season
• Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 4, #3 in Ultra High Performance All-Season
• Bridgestone Potenza Sport AS, #3 in Ultra High Performance All-Season
• Michelin CrossClimate 3 Sport (should be available soon, rating TBD but getting great early reviews from the tire experts)

Sand wrote

my town is basically flat.

An object in motion stays in motion at the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force, a principle known as inertia, which is Newton's First Law of Motion.


I mention the above physics principle because your town may be basically flat there is frequently a need to stop a vehicle. As noted summer slicks in winter conditions don't have the needed traction. As such, the unbalanced force which acts upon a vehicle to stop it is typically another vehicle, the curb, or a ditch. Some get lucky with all three in one go.

In the three conditions you mention – no snow, no ice, flat terrain – you're discounting an important one: temperature. Once you get below 40º your tires are going to get significantly harder and lose most of their traction. I don't care how much you "drive for conditions", nor how good a driver you think you are, the tires are simply not going to have grip. This is going to happen even if there's no snow or ice, and regardless of how flat the terrain is.

I'm not saying that you have to put Winter tires on – just put on all-seasons; they'll work just fine for your conditions and will ride better and last longer than Winters. You've bought an expensive car – don't be penny-wise and pound foolish by cheaping out on buying a set of tires. Is it really worth putting the car into a guard rail, or worse, and having your insurance company weasel out of covering you because you were using tires that the manufacturer stated are completely unsuitable for the conditions*? And if something truly bad does happen, you're going to be screwed.

*This happened to a friend of mine who put his Audi into a telephone pole. It is neither fantasy nor conjecture.

Phillies8008 wrote

In the three conditions you mention – no snow, no ice, flat terrain – you're discounting an important one: temperature. Once you get below 40º your tires are going to get significantly harder and lose most of their traction. I don't care how much you "drive for conditions", nor how good a driver you think you are, the tires are simply not going to have grip. This is going to happen even if there's no snow or ice, and regardless of flat the terrain is.

I'm not saying that you have to put Winter tires on – just put on all-seasons; they'll work just fine for your conditions and will ride better and last longer than Winters. You've bought an expensive car – don't be penny-wise and pound foolish by cheaping out on buying a set of tires. Is it really worth putting the car into a guard rail, or worse, and having your insurance company weasel out of covering you because you were using tires that the manufacturer stated are completely unsuitable for the conditions*? And if something truly bad does happen, you're going to be screwed.

*This happened to a friend of mine who put his Audi into a telephone pole. It is neither fantasy nor conjecture.

I just thought of another condition....

back in June of 1999 or 1998, my area go a freak hail storm. the streets were covered with almost an inch of hail(each about the size of a Tac Tac) IIRC, the outdoor temperature was around 70 and the sun was about the set. The icy mess didn't completely melt away until the next morning. At the time, I had a Mercedes ML and getting around was okay, but it did slid around when I was driving down my street with goes downhill for about 300 feet until a stop sign.

How do summer tires react on that kind of hail-covered street?

Thanks!

Sand wrote

I just thought of another condition....

back in June of 1999 or 1998, my area go a freak hail storm. the streets were covered with almost an inch of hail(each about the size of a Tac Tac) IIRC, the outdoor temperature was around 70 and the sun was about the set. The icy mess didn't completely melt away until the next morning. At the time, I had a Mercedes ML and getting around was okay, but it did slid around when I was driving down my street with goes downhill for about 300 feet until a stop sign.

How do summer tires react on that kind of hail-covered street?

Thanks!

In truth, it's unlikely that any tire is going to do all that well in that circumstance. Driving on ice is a totally different beast, and outside of studded or chained tires, there's not much traction to be had regardless of your tread pattern, etc. Probably best to just not drive in it. Fortunately, that's a pretty freak occurrence.

Sand wrote

my town

I'm trying to get a good image of what you get each year.

* Rare snow, 2-3 times a year, that sticks to the lawn but melts on the street in 24 hours
* Occasional snow, 10 times a year, that lasts for at least a few days and doesn't melt right away because the asphalt itself gets under 32 degrees.

I'd also ask your common use scenario. Do you track on the weekends or do things that really need summer tires? Or is a high performance all-season actually enough because you are unfortunately like me and basically just drive to work with the occasional high speed off ramp scenarios.

tracer bullet wrote

I'm trying to get a good image of what you get each year.

* Rare snow, 2-3 times a year, that sticks to the lawn but melts on the street in 24 hours
* Occasional snow, 10 times a year, that lasts for at least a few days and doesn't melt right away because the asphalt itself gets under 32 degrees.

I'd also ask your common use scenario. Do you track on the weekends or do things that really need summer tires? Or is a high performance all-season actually enough because you are unfortunately like me and basically just drive to work with the occasional high speed off ramp scenarios.

I think this will pretty much tell you everything about me. I have not drive more than 5mph above the posted speed limits since 1998. (when I was cited for reckless driving for going 81mph on cruise control in extremely light traffic rural interstate, in a 70mph zone in a no-radar-detector state... spent 1 night in jail.... even with my spotless record of no moving violation for over 20+ years)

Sand wrote

I think this will pretty much tell you everything about me. I have not drive more than 5mph above the posted speed limits since 1998. (when I was cited for reckless driving for going 81mph on cruise control in extremely light traffic rural interstate, in a 70mph zone in a no-radar-detector state... spent 1 night in jail.... even with my spotless record of no moving violation for over 20+ years)

Conti DWS 06+ and call it a day. You don't need summers, esp in the winter. Winter tires are overkill and not appropriate in the summer.

Hyperbole.

Summers are fine on dry tarmac. I'd argue that winters are worse on dry tarmac.

starlights wrote

Short answer: No.

If it snows and temperatures dip below 40f you are endangering yourself and others around you.

This. My RWD car likes to go sideways on 'high performance summer tires' as the average daytime temps dip below 40F. A sporty all-season tire does more than OK. Dedicated snows for the daily driver and months below 30F here.

A reminder to do as I say, not as a I do... fun little APRIL commute a few years back

86Zed wrote

This. My RWD car likes to go sideways on 'high performance summer tires' as the average daytime temps dip below 40F. A sporty all-season tire does more than OK. Dedicated snows for the daily driver and months below 30F here.

A reminder to do as I say, not as a I do... fun little APRIL commute a few years back

my former ex-girlfriend had a Porsche Boxster. I used to drive it in the winter just before switching to all season tires for the DMV winter. There was one winter when I waited too long and couldn't get an appointment at the Porsche dealer for the tire changeover. But it was a lot of fun going up/down snow-covered hills with the tires spinning or sliding.(when there was no traffic, of course) when I was really adventurous, I did it with the top down and the heater on max. Of course, that didn't happen very often because the DMV never got that much snow anyway.

Sand wrote

my town(as well as my part of the state within a couple hundred miles of me) is basically flat. In the last 10 years, we never got more than half an inch of snow each winter, except one winter when we got 4 inches in one day, but almost all that snow melted by the next afternoon.

the night temperatures do get to the teens in the winter. but the usual is around 25 to 35. during the day, it's usually upper 30s to lower 40s. (again almost never any snow or ice at all)

I know summer tires should not be used when it's lower than 50 or 45 degrees because the rubber hardens and affect handling.

Is it actually ok to run with summer tires if I'm just commuting to/from work or the grocery in that kind of condition. Or will that destroy the summer tires?

as somebody mentioned already conti dws06+ seems like a good fit for your scenarios. you really don’t need summer only rubber.