Alfisti wrote

I'd love to drive a 4C, I hear such conflicting reports of the experience.

I have driven two 4Cs. I would love Alfa to make a revised one that addresses a lot of the first gen issues. Too many compromises for the money. It’s quite a conundrum. Nice mid engined car with a CF tub. But honestly there’s less storage than the Miata, and you’ve got a Dodge motor in the back. I also didn’t like the lack of power assisted steering.

I also liked that it really just had the basics like a 1980s stereo and basic gauges. The dual clutch was okay but not Porsche or BMW okay. For $75k, I’d still get a Porsche Boxster. They are going for less than that now.

ShocknAwe wrote

I'd love to have a 4C. Wonderful car. But no manual gearbox so...

I only had manual cars in my life before. That said, I don't miss it in the 4C as I thought I would. The gears come so fast when accelerating and you want to keep both hands on the steering wheel anyway.

The fact the the opinion was mixed on the handling and the lack of manual dissuaded some, combined with the fact people couldn't easily test drive it - contributed to the fact that the cars were and still are relatively cheap to get.

c1pher wrote

I have driven two 4Cs. I would love Alfa to make a revised one that addresses a lot of the first gen issues. Too many compromises for the money. It’s quite a conundrum. Nice mid engined car with a CF tub. But honestly there’s less storage than the Miata, and you’ve got a Dodge motor in the back. I also didn’t like the lack of power assisted steering.

I also liked that it really just had the basics like a 1980s stereo and basic gauges. The dual clutch was okay but not Porsche or BMW okay. For $75k, I’d still get a Porsche Boxster. They are going for less than that now.

4c over the 4cyl boxster all day, it looks like it wants to fellate you. Used, yeah 75K CDN which is low end 997.2 money and there's the conundrum.

Former 2006 NC Miata owner here - tracked and autocrossed it for 10 years. Also taught both daughters how to drive in it. The car is basically a 1-seat toy (the passenger seat is functional, but the leg room is severely lacking because of crash protection requirements...the passenger seat is better than the back seats in a 911, but that's not saying much). I was fortunate to own both a Miata and 911 (997.2 C2S) at the same time. Miata was 100% more fun around town, because you could drive it 9/10ths on empty roads and not be putting yourself at serious risk. Suspension and exhaust upgrades are mandatory in my view, as are slightly wider tires. I current have a Cayman GTS 4.0 with ~400hp, but I still miss the Miata for the level of fun it provided on even the most mundane drive. I didn't consider myself a convertible guy when I bought it, but I kept the roof down 98% of the time even when temps dropped into the low 40s. The only time I'd put the roof up was for long-distance highway drives to the tracks around me for DE days (all are 1.5 to 4.5 hours away from home). I'd also wear noise-canceling headphones for those long drives. I got rid of the Miata because it's totally underpowered for track duty these days, where the average car is significantly faster on the straights. It's also scary to think about crashing in the Miata because there's not a lot of metal, and no roof. I had an aftermarket roll bar behind the seats which replaced the puny 1" stock roll bars, but my helmet still protruded slightly above that during the "broomstick" test if I didn't scooch down in my seat. But now I'm addicted to the sound of the glorious 4-liter flat six in my CGTS, so it'll be a while until I'm ready to get back into a Miata again.

hehe, that thread on the Miata end is funny.

Those dudes are just as defensive online haha.

T.R.S. wrote

Never even sat in a Miata since there's no way I'd ever fit in one due to my long limbs. What do you think Mazda's reasoning is for manufacturing it with a suspension that "everybody knows needs to be modified" when they present it for sale as a sports car?

Because the vast majority of people will never modify a Miata. I know it's tempting to read enthusiast forums and take what people say for the majority viewpoint, but it really isn't. The number of people that will ever track any car is a rounding error.

Most people buying a Miata want a sporty roadster that's fun to occasionally sling around, which is exactly what Mazda builds. Making it what enthusiasts insist it needs to be would absolutely kill the appeal for most of the Miata buyers, as well as drive up the cost. A pretty fun, cool-looking roadster for a relatively very reasonable price is the Miata's wheelhouse. Why screw it up to satisfy a fraction of your customer base, especially when whatever you do still won't be "correct" to a lot of them and they'll just end up modding it anyway?

Given the success of the Miata over the last 40ish years, it's kind of hard to argue that they don't know what they're doing...

Phillies8008 wrote

Because the vast majority of people will never modify a Miata. I know it's tempting to read enthusiast forums and take what people say for the majority viewpoint, but it really isn't. The number of people that will ever track any car is a rounding error.

Most people buying a Miata want a sporty roadster that's fun to occasionally sling around, which is exactly what Mazda builds. Making it what enthusiasts insist it needs to be would absolutely kill the appeal for most of the Miata buyers, as well as drive up the cost. A pretty fun, cool-looking roadster for a relatively very reasonable price is the Miata's wheelhouse. Why screw it up to satisfy a fraction of your customer base, especially when whatever you do still won't be "correct" to a lot of them and they'll just end up modding it anyway?

Given the success of the Miata over the last 40ish years, it's kind of hard to argue that they don't know what they're doing...

VERY. WELL. SAID.

Most Miata owners think the ride and handling is perfect. It's a sports car for the masses. For that smaller subset that wants more, the sky is the limit with those cars.

Mazda and Toyota are working together on a shared chassis for the Miata and GT86. My guess is the new Miata will be a little wider and ride lower, thus may quell some of the body roll many don't like in the ND gen Miatas.

This was a similar take:
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=778659

tranquility wrote

This was a similar take:
https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=778659

People seem a lot nicer in that thread

wtwo3 wrote

People seem a lot nicer in that thread

Guess they couldn't smash him since he owned one. Some of those guys were crazy touchy, even though many acknowledged that what you said was right (re body roll).

I've just moved over from a 2.0L Miata to an M240i, still have a soft spot for the MX5 as it was a great fun car that put a smile on my face every time I took it out.

Part of the fun was having to push it, you would never be the quickest thing (by a country mile) but through the corners it held its own very well. A few tweaks here and there wider wheels/tyres, better clutch & lighter fly and a quick map and it was more than capable.

The M240i is much quicker and more capable but also a different price bracket and very different car.

Would I have another 5 after the M240i, probably not, not because the car was bad, far from it, but the build quality and abilities of the M240 would leave me wanting more that the car couldnt give...

TheNissanMan wrote

Would I have another 5 after the M240i, probably not, not because the car was bad, far from it, but the build quality and abilities of the M240 would leave me wanting more that the car couldnt give...

Until it hits 80k miles and you realize the Miata still drives like day 1 and the M240 fights for its life to stop leaking coolant over and over and over leading to thousands in repairs like every B48/58 over time.

QUiKSR20 wrote

Until it hits 80k miles and you realize the Miata still drives like day 1 and the M240 fights for its life to stop leaking coolant over and over and over leading to thousands in repairs like every B48/58 over time.

This can’t be true. Have only heard good things about the B58 and its reliability.

Running costs are much cheaper with a Miata, that is a given.

MisanoblueZ4 wrote

This can’t be true. Have only heard good things about the B58 and its reliability.

The motor is a beast as in it will not explode but all the plastic bits attached to it break down and start to cause a bunch of issues..
Trust me if it wasn't true I wouldn't of sold my mint 2018 x3 with 83k miles that was paid off.

The indy I brought it too said they are seeing it more and more as they cars get miles on them.
The motors are great its all the plastic in the coolant system thats the problem and with stuff
like the integrated intercooler into the intake manifold etc it only gets more complex and expensive to fix.

MisanoblueZ4 wrote

This can’t be true. Have only heard good things about the B58 and its reliability.

Running costs are much cheaper with a Miata, that is a given.

The B58 legend started with the fact that it didn't blow up immediately when modded (like previous BMW Turbo 6s). It didn't spin the crank hub, etc and so it was "bulletproof"

This got misconstrued into it being reliable and problem free.

BlkGS wrote

The B58 legend started with the fact that it didn't blow up immediately when modded (like previous BMW Turbo 6s). It didn't spin the crank hub, etc and so it was "bulletproof"

This got misconstrued into it being reliable and problem free.

Exactly! Great motor for sure and can make a ton of power, That doesnt make it reliable... Being problem free from 0-60k miles is nothing, all cars should be capable of this.. How is it from 60-120k?

MisanoblueZ4 wrote

Running costs are much cheaper with a Miata, that is a given.

Once you start playing with a 5 not as much as I thought. Fuel economy isn't massively different (I was averaging 28mpg in the5, 26 so far in the 240, insurance surprisingly is £50 cheaper in the £240, a BMW service plan is £200 a year so again not massively cheaper. Even tyres aren't far off which just leaves parts when needed and obviously the cost of the car itself...

Lol at people thinking b48s b58s self destruct at 60k miles.

I've put over 150k miles on all my bmws, they are not maintenance free but not maintenance intensive either.

Plastics may have blown up back in the stone age of e36s and e46s, but not anymore.

SYT_Shadow wrote

Lol at people thinking b48s b58s self destruct at 60k miles.

I've put over 150k miles on all my bmws, they are not maintenance free but not maintenance intensive either.

Plastics may have blown up back in the stone age of e36s and e46s, but not anymore.

They absolutely "will not" self destruct at 60k miles but they also should not start to slowly fall apart after 75-85k miles.
Ours was flawless till 75-80k miles and then it began to nickle and dime us with constant annoying small issues along with some major ones.

Ive been driving and wrenching on BMW's for almost 20 years, These latest models are not built to last, Once warranty/lease is up its a roll of the dice.

It got to the point where my wife did not trust taking it when going on longer trips with our kids.

Our last 2018 G01 X3 had the following go wrong at 80k miles or so :

- Oil Filter Housing Cracked
- Main coolant line to block under intake manifold cracked
- Radiator Leaking
- Turbo coolant return line leaking.

We replaced all the above plus every hose under the intake manifold while we were in there for $4500 (mind you I typically DIY everything, this was a bit much ).

I wasn't waiting around for the Heater Control Valve and Water pump to start leaking next and cost me another couple grand, All for a car with less than 100k miles which is pretty ridiculous..

You need to do some more searching on here to see how many "low coolant", "Another Coolant Leak" threads there are, how is this acceptable in 2025? These are basic things.

You are in absolute denial if you think the modern BMW's are not subject to insane amounts of plastic degradation and coolant leaks that other mfr's never have.

My E90 was semi flawless till 100k, my F30 great till 110k, G01 started Puking its guts at 80k...

SYT_Shadow wrote

Plastics may have blown up back in the stone age of e36s and e46s, but not anymore.

^This.

The plastics used in late model BMWs can last. Do they last forever? Nope, but they'll last 10+ years. My 2016 M235 was solid for nearly 8 years and 80k miles. Not even a weep from the valve cover and that car was Stage 2 for much of it's life. My 2018 M2, that I bought 6 years old, has been great too. I did have to replace the T-stat as it stuck open.

My 2011 Porsche Cayman is full of many plastic parts on the cooling and intake system. That car is nearly 15 years old, 95K miles, and none of those parts have failed. I'm sure some will, but to expect a lifetime of service is crazy.

My wife's 2020 4runner, daughter's 2015 Outback, and son's 2020 Mazda 3 have just as many plastic parts as my German cars do.

XutvJet wrote

^This.

The plastics used in late model BMWs can last. Do they last forever? Nope, but they'll last 10+ years. My 2016 M235 was solid for nearly 8 years and 80k miles. Not even a weep from the valve cover and that car was Stage 2 for much of it's life. My 2018 M2, that I bought 6 years old, has been great too. I did have to replace the T-stat as it stuck open.

My 2011 Porsche Cayman is full of many plastic parts on the cooling and intake system.
That car is nearly 15 years old, 95K miles, and none of those parts have failed. I'm sure some will, but to expect a lifetime of service is crazy.

My wife's 2020 4runner, daughter's 2015 Outback, and son's 2020 Mazda 3 have just as many plastic parts as my German cars do.

I guess all these cars going thru this are just making stuff up then, Some last some dont.. My x3 was a disaster, My F30 was fine till 110k miles.

Your 4runner and Outback have no wheres NEAR the amount of plastic parts, Go pop the hood and look.. They still use mostly metal coolant housings with standard clamps.
They do not use quick disconnects with o-rings and plastic flanges. I own an Acura RDX as well as a GR86 and it has almost zero plastic coolant fittings.. Not zero but way way way less..

Most are traditional hose clamps to metal flanges, BMW is just being cheap.... You cant be smart enough to make a microchip but not have the skill to create a solid clamp / flange..
Its pure cheapness and poor design and nothing more, You and I both know this.

Just a sample of all the coolant system issue posts on semi new cars -

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1839119&highlight=housing

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2156576&highlight=housing

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2055027&highlight=housing

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1702765&highlight=housing

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1738305&highlight=coolant

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2135606&highlight=coolant

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2107891&highlight=coolant

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1941037&highlight=coolant

https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1665191&highlight=coolant

Im not trying to throw shade at BMW but lets call a spade a spade, They put penny pinching first and choose to use inferior
parts that dont last in the coolant system. Ive owned 30+ cars ( many bmw's ) and BMW has been probably the only one to
have this many coolant system issues, VW was close..

NOBODY is expecting a lifetime but they should make 100k miles / 10 years..
Come on, I have cars that made 250k miles with original coolant and never touched a hose / housing / flange etc.

Anyhow I dont wanna take over the thread with nonsense, Was just stating the Miata & 240i will have very different maint costs and its not because the BMW
has a more advanced engine. BMW could build a more reliable car and chooses not too.. Coolant system flanges isnt rocket science, its just the penny pinchers at work.

As a non technical person I must echo the fear I have of BMW is not the engine eating itself, it's all the ancillaries being cheaply made.