I own a 5D MkII and love it for most of my shooting (scenics, people, travel, archetectural, etc.); however, I took up bird photography last summer and a couple of shortcomings were exposed:

• Focus is slow and hard to control, particularly for birds coming straight at you at low altitude
• The FF sensor, while providing great high ISO performance, limits the reach of my lenses.

After looking at the prices of 500mm Canon and Sigma lenses, I went into shock over the $5000++ prices and started thinking seriously about a crop sensor body. Since I tend to shoot at dawn and dusk, I was worried about most crop-sensor bodies' poorer high-ISO performance, finding that I need at least ISO 1600 right at dawn to get enough shutter speed and enough light for birds in flight with a f5.6L lens.

As I was bemoaning the crop-sensor ISO performance, the 7D was announced and some beta reports came out showing very good performance up to ISO 1600, so now I'm pretty well committed to buying a 7D as soon as I see a report of a production model. For bird in flight, here are the advantages I see:

• Decent high-ISO performance to 1600
• Great autofocus scheme
• 8-fps burst rate
• 1.6 crop ratio, making my 400mm lens a 640mm-equivalent
• Adding my 1.4 TC makes my 400mm lens almost a 900mm-equivalent, but requiring manual focus and full light

Is anyone else considering the 7D? Am I smoking dope, or does my logic make sense for a birding camera?

Dave

If you only have 1 camera and its the 5DMK2, and for a 2nd camera, 7D is by far, and absolutely one of the best body out there, not just within Canon, but among all other bodies.

7D is almost 90% a 1D, except that its a crop body with APSC sensor.

But I am literally drooling as I read the spec here

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0909/09090105canoneos7d.asp

These 2 functions alone is worth the money

19-point cross-type AF system including Spot AF
The AF system has been completely redesigned using the same architecture as the EOS-1 series and includes a separate processor to handle AF calculations. This, along with AI SERVO II AF, enables the EOS 7D to offer accurate, reliable and continuous shooting at 8fps. Uniquely at this level, all 19 points in the EOS 7D AF sensor are cross-type points with f/5.6 or faster lenses, which allows sophisticated tracking, accuracy and performance throughout the frame.

EOS 7D also includes Spot AF, a new mode that uses a smaller area of the sensor to determine focus. This is useful for small subjects where there is background detail that can distract the AF sensor. It also includes Zone AF which limits automatic selection to one of five zones. This allows photographers to ensure their subject is automatically selected.

iFCL metering system with 63-zone Dual-layer Sensor
The iFCL system uses Focus, Colour and Luminance information to determine consistently exposed shots. All focus points provide distance information to the metering system to determine proximity to the subject and allow the algorithm to weight the exposure accordingly. EOS 7D has a completely new metering sensor with 63 zones compatible with 19 AF points. Typically, metering sensors are more sensitive to red subjects which can lead to overexposure. EOS 7D combats this with the dual layer sensor, which has one layer sensitive to red and green light and one that is sensitive to blue and green light. The metering algorithm then compares the level of the two layers and adjusts the meter reading accordingly.


Did I mention that if you have a zoom lens, say 24-70, or 17-55 f2.8, it is said that at ALL 19 point focus point, you will have the same photo quality at all points, whereas the current 50D and even the 5D cannot do.

So... 7D.. a bit pricy at $1800 for a crop body, but hell, if I didnt have a 50D already, I'd grab 7D.


For your bird photography, I'd assume auto focus speed, accuracy, and ability to focus moving objects are KEY.. heck, I thnk you have no choice, but to go for 7D, unless budget is an issue.

PNF wrote

If you only have 1 camera and its the 5DMK2, and for a 2nd camera, 7D is by far, and absolutely one of the best body out there, not just within Canon, but among all other bodies.
...

So... 7D.. a bit pricy at $1800 for a crop body, but hell, if I didnt have a 50D already, I'd grab 7D.


For your bird photography, I'd assume auto focus speed, accuracy, and ability to focus moving objects are KEY.. heck, I thnk you have no choice, but to go for 7D, unless budget is an issue.

For birds in flight you need reach, AF performance and a decent burst rate. If you do it early in the morning, like me, then you also need high ISO performance. I think the 7D has all of that and, as you say, it's among the very top crop-sensor bodies, bar none. (At least based on specs and preliminary reviews of beta-prototypes).

Look at a few Canon L-lenses over 400mm and your perspective on the $1800 body changes to where it seems an absolute bargain. Even the Sigma prime lens are more than the 7D body. Thankfully, I can afford it and, using my Direct Buy account, I'll be able to get it at dealer cost within a few weeks.

Dave

5D for stills, 7D for on the go

jzhang wrote

5D for stills, 7D for on the go

Yup, too bad we need two bodies to do everything great.

What about a used 1DMkII? Super fast focus and the it has a 1.3 crop rather than the 1.6 of the 7D

I used to do a lot of bird photography and still do some, but transitioning from crop bodies to the 5D2 has left me wanting more reach - even with a 500 + 1.4x attached. Because of this the 1.5x greater linear pixel density of the 7D has significant appeal to me.

That said I think the AF performance of the 5D2 is actually quite good on the center AF point (which is really all I ever use). So I wonder if the new 19 point AF of the 7D might be overkill for me. In short, I think we 5D2 users already have a camera that's "good enough" for bird photography, and can wait awhile until reviews of the 7D - glowing or scathing - start to trickle in. If eveyone loves the damn thing I may try to pick up one as a 2nd body on sale in the spring, but the 5D2 is good enough that I'm not going to be in any particular hurry.

FStop7 wrote

What about a used 1DMkII? Super fast focus and the it has a 1.3 crop rather than the 1.6 of the 7D

Yes, that's a viable option.

I've already got video, but the 7D's HD-video is a plus, as is the 1.6 crop and it's not as bulky as the 1D2. The AF is where I want to see more discussion and a "real" test of the 7D before sending my money into Canon. I really suspect that the 7D's AF will deliver, but I'd really like to see a dpreview test first.

Dave

vachss wrote

I used to do a lot of bird photography and still do some, but transitioning from crop bodies to the 5D2 has left me wanting more reach - even with a 500 + 1.4x attached. Because of this the 1.5x greater linear pixel density of the 7D has significant appeal to me.

That said I think the AF performance of the 5D2 is actually quite good on the center AF point (which is really all I ever use). So I wonder if the new 19 point AF of the 7D might be overkill for me. In short, I think we 5D2 users already have a camera that's "good enough" for bird photography, and can wait awhile until reviews of the 7D - glowing or scathing - start to trickle in. If eveyone loves the damn thing I may try to pick up one as a 2nd body on sale in the spring, but the 5D2 is good enough that I'm not going to be in any particular hurry.

You do indeed "do some" bird photography. That entry in the Forum's contest is stunning. In fact I'd love to see it full size. Do you have a link?

I too thought that the 5D2 would be "good enough" for bird photography. Almost all my bird shots are heavy crops and still pretty darn sharp, but I look at shots taken at "effective" focal lengths of 600, 800 and 900mm and long for that kind of detail. My main motivation to consider the 7D is reach, without too much sacrifice of high-ISO performance. The AF and burst speed are secondary, but pluses.

Sounds like we're pretty much on the same page about the 7D.

Dave

if the 5d and the 7d got together and had a baby it would be awesome..... CANON ARE YOU LISTENING!?!?!?!

jzhang wrote

if the 5d and the 7d got together and had a baby it would be awesome..... CANON ARE YOU LISTENING!?!?!?!

Well maybe, except we'd still need a FF version and crop-sensor version, at least for us bird and sports photographers. I wouldn't be surprised to see the AF scheme make it into the 5D, but I'm not so sure that 8 fps is possible with that FF sensor engine, at least without making the body larger to hold the computing power.

I'm really starting to think of the 5D2 as a light medium-format camera. When used with great lenses, the images remind me of my old medium-format film images, just way easier to manipulate. It'll do in a pinch for birds and action, that's just not its forte.

Dave

dcstep wrote

Well maybe, except we'd still need a FF version and crop-sensor version, at least for us bird and sports photographers. I wouldn't be surprised to see the AF scheme make it into the 5D, but I'm not so sure that 8 fps is possible with that FF sensor engine, at least without making the body larger to hold the computing power.

I'm really starting to think of the 5D2 as a light medium-format camera. When used with great lenses, the images remind me of my old medium-format film images, just way easier to manipulate. It'll do in a pinch for birds and action, that's just not its forte.

Dave

of course, the FF of the 5d maybe the mp too + the autofucus and speed from 7d. glorious.

Bird photography requires fast AF and fast fps.....
I would definitely get a used 1DM3 or refirb..... (90d warranty)
Adorama and bhphoto are always getting in new stuff.

Get a pro body you wont look back.....

M3Captain wrote

Bird photography requires fast AF and fast fps.....
I would definitely get a used 1DM3 or refirb..... (90d warranty)
Adorama and bhphoto are always getting in new stuff.

Get a pro body you wont look back.....

What will I gain with the 1D3 over the 7D??? I see no advantage except perhaps better weather proofing, which I handle with a plastic drape and the camera's own O-rings.

Just asking?

Dave

jzhang wrote

if the 5d and the 7d got together and had a baby it would be awesome..... CANON ARE YOU LISTENING!?!?!?!

Yea, and thats 1D... (well, almost)

They cant have a 7D FF.. that will absolutely kill 1Ds and 1D market..

dcstep wrote

I'll be able to get it at dealer cost within a few weeks.

Dave

really??

You think you can get a body for me???

(have to be Canon?)



Again, one of the biggest advantage of 7D is its AF and 19 pt/spot/single point focus...

its NEVER an overkill to have faster AF and more focus points..

for the reach, 1.6x is really a plus... its like saying, you want a crop body with a 1D capability.. (that would be 7D)

Thank goodness you can get one at somewhat cheaper price... 7D man!!!

dcstep wrote

What will I gain with the 1D3 over the 7D??? I see no advantage except perhaps better weather proofing, which I handle with a plastic drape and the camera's own O-rings.

Just asking?

Dave

10fps
45pt AF with 19 cross-type for 2.8 lenses
63zone metering.

PNF wrote

really??

You think you can get a body for me???

(have to be Canon?)



Again, one of the biggest advantage of 7D is its AF and 19 pt/spot/single point focus...

its NEVER an overkill to have faster AF and more focus points..

for the reach, 1.6x is really a plus... its like saying, you want a crop body with a 1D capability.. (that would be 7D)

Thank goodness you can get one at somewhat cheaper price... 7D man!!!

Everytime that I buy through Direct Buy I certify that it's for me. Direct Buy requires a steep, up-front membership fee, so it only makes sense if you're going to spend quite a bit of money. I signed up for other reason, but Canon purchase at dealer cost are a nice side benefit.

Yeah, 7D seems like the way for me to go.

Dave

I love my setup of a 1D MKIII and a 5D MKII with a 1D MKII as a backup... The only thing that will beat this setup will be when a 1D MKIV comes out.

7D looks nice, I just do not like the Sensor size.

spectrumphoto wrote

...
7D looks nice, I just do not like the Sensor size.

Please tell me more.

I'm attracted to the 7D exactly because of it's sensor size and the prospect of converting my 400mm f5.6L into a 640 mm f5.6L. Looking at the test pictures available so far, I think it's a big step forward from the 50D, with acceptable low light performance up to ISO 1600. Do you think that I'll be disappointed with IQ in my birding application? (Keep in mind, I'll still be using the 5D2 for scenics and just about everything else). Also, keep in mind, that with my current lens I'm seriously cropping almost all my bird shots, thus losing a good bit of the great initial IQ.

Thanks for your opinions.

Dave

dcstep wrote

What will I gain with the 1D3 over the 7D??? I see no advantage except perhaps better weather proofing, which I handle with a plastic drape and the camera's own O-rings.

Just asking?

Dave

M3Captain wrote

10fps
45pt AF with 19 cross-type for 2.8 lenses
63zone metering.

And $1,000 to $2,000 less in your pocket. Used 1D3's are around $2,800 and new is $3,700. Quite a jump up in price over the projected 7D street price. But 10FPS would rock the Casbah!

M3Captain wrote

10fps
45pt AF with 19 cross-type for 2.8 lenses
63zone metering.

Thanks. I don't want or need any of those. (I'm an old film guy, so 8fps is more than enough); 45 pt AF is too many for birds and I don't own any 2.8 super teles and never will; and, finally, I have no trouble with metering now.

Still, thanks for the advice. That's why I posted here and you responded appropriately.

Dave

DCStep, slightly off topic, but I have been wanting to join Direct Buy for a while, but I can't find any info on membership costs. When you say membership fees are steep, what are we talking here?