[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by G30M

BMW wins the 24 hrs of Nurburgring 2025. They were a few seconds behind Porsche but they didn't need to overtake the Porsche because the Porsche carried a 1.5 min penalty. Porsche was given the penalty after doing a Lando Norris (going for a gap that wasn't there) due to too much pressure from the faster chasing BMW, flipping an Aston Martin on its head in the process. After that the BMW didn't need to pass, they just followed and won.

[M5Rick]

Unforgivable that from yellow P-car doing that to the poor Aston flipping it, should have been DSQ from the race.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Unforgivable that from yellow P-car doing that to the poor Aston flipping it, should have been DSQ from the race.

He's been watching too much F1

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by G30M

He's been watching too much F1

Aka : The Lando gap (!)

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Because even Wolff knows and has seen the same data as Lauda did. Max is better, faster, more talented, better in the race, better in quali, and he can drive anything fast - whether it suits him or not. Ham cannot do a thing with an F1 car unless it's the fastest by miles and there isnt anyone else with a capable car.

Alonso and Hamilton: complicated.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Alonso and Hamilton: complicated.

Attachment 3761757

I believe he is right - Max won 4 WDCs in a row not only against the odds of the self-driving MB, but in a regulation era that severely handicapped the top team, along with budget caps, and even clear bias against Max regarding penalties (and 2 of those seasons are probably #1 and #3 ever in history with Sch's '94 campaign being #2). Ham won his with a rather lackluster talent pool, and that is being very nice. All while driving a car that even on a bad day was 8 tenths a lap faster in the race, and on a good day was able to lap the field...and more importantly, the car was responsible for 99% of the performance capability (as proven by Ros and Bot who were laughable able to lock out front rows with ease). Anyone with the ability to fit in the car would have extracted the same level of performance, and in the case of a great, great driver, like Max, would have far exceeded it since many of the metrics (50 win race %, most points, most podiums, most wins, etc) over Ham's 8 years driving a dominant car were dwarfed by Max having a good car for 2 years. And he still couldnt beat Max driving a slower car in 2021 and then we know what happened since 2022.
Beyond that, as we've seen, he cannot develop a car at all. Once MB built a car around Ham's preferences, they went to shit. Then he moves to Ferrari and the change 99% of the car to his preferences, and the car goes to shit, and Lec is making him look like the lackluster driver most of us have always known despite having a car that is arguable the 2nd best car on the grid.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

And he still couldnt beat Max driving a slower car in 2021 and then we know what happened since 2022.\

to be fair for that to happen, Max got some help first from Perez, then Latifi, and Masi needed to intervene, but happen it did, the planets aligned! absolute madness.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by G30M

to be fair for that to happen, Max got some help first from Perez, then Latifi, and Masi needed to intervene, but happen it did, the planets aligned! absolute madness.

Each driver had the same opportunity to pit for tires. It's not like in 2008 when the FIA knew there was known and blatant cheating that they completely ignored. The FIA had rules that superseded others so what happened was completed OK by the regulations at the time.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Each driver had the same opportunity to pit for tires. It's not like in 2008 when the FIA knew there was known and blatant cheating that they completely ignored. The FIA had rules that superseded others so what happened was completed OK by the regulations at the time.

I'm not sure what 2008 has got to do with anything

if Perez didn't block Ham for 16s, Ham would have pitted and came out in front of Verstappen even if Verstappen didn't pit. He didn't pit because the team thought that pitting would make him come out behind Max and the race was supposed to finish under safety car like the last race in Canada, with lapped cars being given 2 laps to go around.

If Latifi didn't crash there would be no safety car.

If Masi didn't do a Masi then race finish under safety car like in Canada.

so all of them needed to happen, which they did

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by G30M

I'm not sure what 2008 has got to do with anything

if Perez didn't block Ham for 16s, Ham would have pitted and came out in front of Verstappen even if Verstappen didn't pit. He didn't pit because the team thought that pitting would make him come out behind Max and the race was supposed to finish under safety car like the last race in Canada, with lapped cars being given 2 laps to go around.

If Latifi didn't crash there would be no safety car.

If Masi didn't do a Masi then race finish under safety car like in Canada.

so all of them needed to happen, which they did

Well, 2008 was a cover up but I digress on that.

F1 races can be wild, but all teams agreed they wanted to finish under green racing conditions so they should not have expected it to finished under a SC. No race ever should.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by G30M

I'm not sure what 2008 has got to do with anything

if Perez didn't block Ham for 16s, Ham would have pitted and came out in front of Verstappen even if Verstappen didn't pit. He didn't pit because the team thought that pitting would make him come out behind Max and the race was supposed to finish under safety car like the last race in Canada, with lapped cars being given 2 laps to go around.

If Latifi didn't crash there would be no safety car.

If Masi didn't do a Masi then race finish under safety car like in Canada.

so all of them needed to happen, which they did

If, if, if...You forgot IF Hammy didn't leave brake magic on by MISTAKE none of the items you list would have been an issue. It's racing, $hit happens.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

If, if, if...You for got IF Hammy didn't leave brake magic on by MISTAKE none of the items you list would have been an issue. It's racing, $hit happens.

F1 history is loaded with DNF stories, "would have", "should have".

What matters for WDC/WCC points, is who makes it to the chequered flag first (without track postion penalty/DSQ and even if track positions between team mates are swapped further to team orders).

Three examples.

• 1988 Monaco GP: 78 laps. Senna (P1) leads the race, about 55 seconds ahead of Prost (P2). Team boss Ron Dennis urges Senna to slow down to ensure a 1-2 race result. Senna crashes at Portier in lap 66. DNF. Prost wins the race.
  Did Senna "give" Prost the race win ? No. Prost passed the chequered flag as P1 - Senna DNF'd (but his performance during qualies and the GP remains intergalactic in F1 history);
• 2018 Brazilian GP: 71 laps. Ocon (P14) clumsily tries to unlap himself in lap 44 and crashes into the side of Verstappen (P1) in Turn 2: a lapped driver crashes into the race leader. Hamilton (P2) passes stricken Verstappen (spun off track - damaged floor). Ocon got a 10 second Stop and Go penalty. Hamilton wins the race.
  Did Verstappen "give" Hamilton the race win ? No. Hamilton passed the chequered flag as P1 - Verstappen finished P2 (and also had a post-race altercation with Ocon in the paddock);
• 2021 Azerbaijan GP: 51 laps. Verstappen (P1) leads the race ahead of Perez (P2) and Hamilton (P3). Fastest lap at lap 44. He DNF's at lap 46 due to a tire puncture catapulting him into the barriers at full speed. Red flag.
  Did Verstappen "give" Perez or Hamilton the race win ? No. Perez passed the chequered flag as P1 - Hamilton finished P16 after clumsily locking up at restart ("brake magic" - "magic button" issue) - Verstappen DNF'd.
  Hypotheticals: without the tire puncture, Verstappen very likely would have gotten 26 points (25 + 1 FL point) and Hamilton 15 or 18 points (very likely P3 or P2). They both left the race with 0 points. The points difference would have mattered for the 2021 WDC. And let's not start again about how gained and lost 2021 WDC/WCC points at Silverstone 2021 and Michael Masi antics mattered too.

F1 1988 Monaco GP - Qualies results: Senna (P1 - McLaren Honda) 1.427s clear of Prost (P2 - McLaren Honda), 2.687s clear of Berger (P3 - Ferrari) and 3.299s clear of Alboreto (P4 - Ferrari):


Based on stellar performance during qualies and the GP, Senna deserved the GP race win; but he DNF'd - "would have", "should have" doesn't count for WDC/WCC points and race victories statistics:

Exception to the rule: Roman Emperor Nero

In the 67 AD Olympic Games, he participated in a chariot race driving a ten-horse chariot, which was unusual as the standard was four horses (already cheating with his gear). Although he fell out of the chariot and did not complete the race, he was still declared the victor. This outcome was controversial, as some accounts suggest officials declared him the winner based on the idea that he "would have won" had he finished. Let's leave it to: post-race, the race stewards didn't want to be thrown to the lions...

Nero also competed in other events, including musical contests and chariot races for foals, and - surprise, surprise - won several crowns (he won all crowns for the musical contests). Some of these events were specifically created for him and were not held again. All games of the 'periodos' were held in a single year (the Olympic games were postponed almost two years for this occasion), so that Nero could become 'periodos-victor' in just one year.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Artemis

F1 history is loaded with DNF stories, "would have", "should have".

What matters for WDC/WCC points, is who makes it to the chequered flag first (without track postion penalty/DSQ and even if track positions between team mates are swapped further to team orders).

We forgot ''if only''

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Artemis

F1 history is loaded with DNF stories, "would have", "should have".

What matters for WDC/WCC points, is who makes it to the chequered flag first (without track postion penalty/DSQ and even if track positions between team mates are swapped further to team orders).

It's almost as if Masi had a change of conscience. His pockets were clearly being lined or he was being wined and dines by MB as it appears based on radio messages he and Wolff were long time buddies and when Wolff said no 'safety car' Masi obliged even though it was wrong. Beyond that, Masi seemed to let many penalties against Ham go to the wayside. Why? Why could Ham cut the corner in AD or have 28 track violations in Bahrain without even a second thought. I think he finally did the right thing to let them shoot it out on the last lap. The much faster car vs the much faster driver, and the latter won. Again, Crashgate was a known cheating scandal covered up by the FIA...this was nothing like that and all above board.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

We forgot ''if only''

The number 1 is still very relaxed and he took care for Lily

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

F1 history is loaded with DNF stories, "would have", "should have".

everybody gets help in sports, in life in general. It's called being at the right place at the right time.

some people help goes against them - eg i still feel for Massa missing out. kimi also in the maclaren that keeps blowing up for some reason. schumacher would have had 8 (and alonso only 1) if his car didn't blow up.

but that's life.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

It's almost as if Masi had a change of conscience. His pockets were clearly being lined or he was being wined and dines by MB as it appears based on radio messages he and Wolff were long time buddies and when Wolff said no 'safety car' Masi obliged even though it was wrong. Beyond that, Masi seemed to let many penalties against Ham go to the wayside. Why? Why could Ham cut the corner in AD or have 28 track violations in Bahrain without even a second thought. I think he finally did the right thing to let them shoot it out on the last lap. The much faster car vs the much faster driver, and the latter won. Again, Crashgate was a known cheating scandal covered up by the FIA...this was nothing like that and all above board.

There was FIA, there were warnings by FIA race director Masi ahead of the race, there were teams, there were drivers, there was a race circuit, there was a crash, there were FIA rules, there were high stakes, there was the heat of the moment, there were team strategy decisions about possible pitstops, tire changes and preserving track positions, there was a controversial race restart decision by FIA (Masi) and there was a chequered flag. During the final lap, Verstappen overtook race leader Hamilton fair and square at Turn 5 and passed the chequered flag ahead of him. Mercedes disputed the result (they even brought legal counsel to the race and used their services to file the complaint). The race stewards dismissed the complaint, applying FIA rules. Mercedes and Hamilton rest their case. End of story, but also of Masi's reputation and position as F1 race director.

An aspect often forgotten: ahead of the 2021 Abu Dhabi race, in response to concerns, race director Michael Masi himself warned that Verstappen or Hamilton could be subject to further sanctions from the FIA if one of them decided to manufacture a deliberate race-ending collision in an attempt to engineer a favourable championship result, up to and including championship disqualification or future race bans:

• "FIA issues points deduction warning ahead of F1 title decider"
  https://www.the-race.com/formula-1/f...title-decider/
• "Tensions rise between Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen before F1 decider"
  https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ore-f1-decider

That same race director - condemning prior to the race any attempt to engineer a favourable championship result - took a decision during the final stage of the 2021 Abu Dhabi race. It wasn't Verstappen who has taken that race decision (just like Verstappen hasn't taken the "No further action" decision when Hamilton gained a track position and exit speed advantage by cutting the Turn 9 hairpin during the first lap of the race).

Originally Posted by Artemis

Exception to the rule: Roman Emperor Nero
In the 67 AD Olympic Games, he participated in a chariot race driving a ten-horse chariot, which was unusual as the standard was four horses (already cheating with his gear). Although he fell out of the chariot and did not complete the race, he was still declared the victor. This outcome was controversial, as some accounts suggest officials declared him the winner based on the idea that he "would have won" had he finished. Let's leave it to: post-race, the race stewards didn't want to be thrown to the lions...
Nero also competed in other events, including musical contests and chariot races for foals, and - surprise, surprise - won several crowns (he won all crowns for the musical contests). Some of these events were specifically created for him and were not held again. All games of the 'periodos' were held in a single year (the Olympic games were postponed almost two years for this occasion), so that Nero could become 'periodos-victor' in just one year.

And about the megalomanic Roman Emperor Nero "successfully" participating in the 67 AD Olympics in a chariot race with cheating (a 10-horse chariot instead of the usual 4 horses, which got him a considerable horsepower advantage ...that, oh irony, he couldn't handle: DNF): after he died a year later, his name was removed from the list of winners.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The number 1 is still very relaxed and he took care for Lily

Nice to see MAX recharging the batteries with his family well away from the crazy world and pressure of F1.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Artemis

There was FIA, there were warnings by FIA race director Masi ahead of the race, there were teams, there were drivers, there was a race circuit, there was a crash, there were FIA rules,


And about the megalomanic Roman Emperor Nero "successfully" participating in the 67 AD Olympics in a chariot race with cheating (a 10-horse chariot instead of the usual 4 horses, which got him a considerable horsepower advantage ...that, oh irony, he couldn't handle: DNF): after he died a year later, his name was removed from the list of winners.

Attachment 3762513

Following on from the Nero 'win' when he DNF'd with too fast and furious mount he couldn't handle it's where the term 'fixed race' was most likely born.

[Straykiwi]

Guessing the top ten this season has been harder to pick than a broken nose. This season continues to produce more questions than answers.

1. Has Mercedes finally figured out how to go faster on hotter tracks/ambient air temps?
2. Why are Mercedes customers still blowing up their engines?
3. Just how high up the leaderboard can Hadjar go?
4. AMR appear to be on the verge of once again having a front running car. When will we see it?
5. HAAS or Sauber. Whose turn is it to show an uncharacteristic turn of speed at the Red Bull Ring?

Here's my wild guess at a top ten:

1) VER
2) NOR
3) PIA
4) LEC
5) HAM
6) ANT
7) RUS
8) HAD
9) ALO
10) HUL

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Straykiwi

Guessing the top ten this season has been harder to pick than a broken nose. This season continues to produce more questions than answers.

1. Has Mercedes finally figured out how to go faster on hotter tracks/ambient air temps?
2. Why are Mercedes customers still blowing up their engines?
3. Just how high up the leaderboard can Hadjar go?
4. AMR appear to be on the verge of once again having a front running car. When will we see it?
5. HAAS or Sauber. Whose turn is it to show an uncharacteristic turn of speed at the Red Bull Ring?

Here's my wild guess at a top ten:

1) VER
2) NOR
3) PIA
4) LEC
5) HAM
6) ANT
7) RUS
8) HAD
9) ALO
10) HUL

i can't see Max not winning in his home race, he's always been fast. the only question then is who can keep up - that i don't know. before the last couple of races you'd say McLaren is the quickest but now I'm not so sure. also quickest don't always win, the positions after the first corner has been a determinant of the podium order in so many races this year.

re predicting positions, it's usually pretty easy to predict the last few places!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Following on from the Nero 'win' when he DNF'd with too fast and furious mount he couldn't handle it's where the term 'fixed race' was most likely born.

Just imagine that during the chariot-race, you see the megalomaniac getting ejected from his chariot and the next lap walking back to the "pit lane". You win the race. Prior to the race ceremony, you're yanked apart by the race stewards trying to explain that, actually, you didn't win the race: "His Divine and Imperial Majesty, by the grace of the Thinker and all his Thoughts, Divinely Inspired and Infallible, rightful and only Sovereign over the Empire, Descendent and heir to all of the kingdoms of elves and mankind, Protector of the faith, Custodian of the Holy City of Rome, Grand Master of the Order of Dead and Life, Reverend to all ...definitely deserved the race win. He should have won but didn't make it to the finish due to a merely a technical issue consisting of totally unaccaptable behaviour by his horses."