[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by fastboatster

Poor excuse. I don’t think it’s the complexity, but rather, poor engineering and artificial complexity. Besides, poor reliability effectively rises the price. It is no longer a 30k vehicle, it’s a 40-45k vehicle with 30k “downpayment”

Toyota makes your point...partly. But what Toyota/Lexus do, apparently deliberately, is to delay new technology until it is mature. The Germans tend to install it first and fix it later!

But I stick with my basic point. Even for a Toyota or Lexus, the more complex the vehicle, the more likely it will be to have problems.

[fastboatster]

Nope, my point is that they make things artificially difficult, how about triple square bolts or using aluminum bolts for aluminum parts. I woukd understand why BMW uses aluminum fasteners for magnesium parts, but I can't understand why they use aluminum fasteners for aluminum components. I don't think they are more innovative than BMW, but are more pain to work on.

[The Outrage]

Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast

GC SRT (2nd gen) & Chevy SS are on the short list. I'd have to drive an Sq5 before going either way on it.

I used to own a 2016 Chevrolet SS. I think an R/T Scat Pack or SRT Charger (Challenger) is probably a better vehicle overall. The SS is lacking in creature comforts and technology, even compared to the fairly old LA/LD-platform vehicles. The SS's LS3 is not as powerful as the 6.4 liter Hemi, and occasionally felt soft at lower RPMs. If selecting an automatic transmission, the Challenger's 8HP is generations better than the SS's 6L80. Finally, comparisons over "handling ability" is all relative when comparing two-ton sedans.

I think the Chevrolet SS has been over-hyped by the internet. It's a decent car, but it's not worth a premium unless you need a specific set of attributes in a vehicle.

[XutvJet]

What about a 2010-2013 Lexus IS-F?

[ShocknAwe]

Used? Fun? ~30k? Doesn't need 4d?

Older model Porsche. Do it.

[FuriouslyFast]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

Used? Fun? ~30k? Doesn't need 4d?

Older model Porsche. Do it.

I need something that is not $$$$ or PITA to maintain & also not a joke for winter driving. Porsche anything is not on the radar.

[FuriouslyFast]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

What about a 2010-2013 Lexus IS-F?

As I said earlier, RC-F or bust for Lexus.

[Shiza]

Originally Posted by FuriouslyFast

I need something that is not $$$$ or PITA to maintain & also not a joke for winter driving. Porsche anything is not on the radar.

996 C4S would be a fun, competent, and relatively inexpensive car for all season use. Maintenance on them is not nearly as expensive and they are more reliable than you think.