[allinon72]

What's missing in this discussion is the fact that enthusiasts add carbon fiber because it looks good. The weight savings thing is how it started, now it's about looks. The flax thing is another phony environmental slap in the face while at the same time being ugly. 5% of people are going to think that pattern looks good. It's yet another step in BMW's latest trope of being ugly for ugly's sake, just because it "stands out."

It's like BMW is 3 years behind in their kowtow to the alter of climate change. The temperature of the Earth has changed over thousands of years and will continue to change. Stop telling us that we must change the "weight saving" material on our 100k cars or else the planet will falter. Stop. Enough.

[Canuck335]

Originally Posted by kudos

It's ugly. They need to do something about how it looks.

They’re gonna make them big ugly beaver tooth grilles out of it

Oh and next up is seatbelts made from hemp.

[Canuck335]

Perplexity AI is better for research like this.

## Pros and Cons of Carbon Fibre vs. Flax-Based Fibres in Automotive Use

### **Carbon Fibre: Key Pros and Cons**

**Pros:**
- Extremely strong and stiff, making it ideal for structural and safety-critical automotive components[6].
- Very lightweight, contributing to improved fuel efficiency and vehicle performance[6].
- Highly consistent mechanical properties and durability, with excellent resistance to moisture and environmental degradation[6].
- Modern, high-tech appearance is often desirable in performance vehicles.

**Cons:**
- High production energy demand and significant greenhouse gas emissions during manufacturing[6].
- Expensive raw material and processing costs[6].
- Poor vibration damping, which can lead to increased noise and driver fatigue[6].
- Difficult to recycle and not biodegradable.

### **Flax-Based Fibre: Key Pros and Cons**

**Pros:**
- Lower density than carbon fibre, allowing for even lighter components[9].
- High vibration damping (up to 10x better than carbon fibre), which improves ride comfort and reduces driver fatigue—especially valuable in motorsport and for NVH (noise, vibration, harshness) management[6][9].
- Significantly lower environmental impact: flax cultivation and processing require much less energy and emit less CO₂, with up to 50% energy and 30% emissions reduction compared to carbon fibre[6][8].
- Renewable, biodegradable, and more sustainable[8].
- Lower cost and less energy-intensive to produce[2][6].
- Increasingly used for both hidden and visible interior and exterior automotive parts, with natural aesthetics now a selling point[4].

**Cons:**
- Mechanical properties (strength, stiffness) are lower than carbon fibre, limiting use in the most demanding structural applications[6][7].
- Sensitive to moisture—flax fibres absorb water, which can lead to swelling, reduced strength, and potential microbial growth[1][2][7].
- Greater variability in material properties due to natural origins and processing differences, which can affect consistency and reliability[2].
- Requires surface treatments or coupling agents to improve adhesion with polymers, adding complexity to manufacturing[2][7].

## **Summary**

- **Carbon fibre** excels in strength, stiffness, durability, and consistency, but comes with high cost, environmental impact, and poor vibration damping.
- **Flax-based fibres** offer compelling benefits in sustainability, weight reduction, vibration damping, and cost, but face challenges with moisture sensitivity, variability, and somewhat lower mechanical performance.

Automakers are increasingly adopting flax-based composites for non-structural and even some structural parts, especially where sustainability and comfort are priorities, while carbon fibre remains the material of choice for the highest-performance, most demanding applications[2][4][6][9].

[1] https://www.easycomposites.co.uk/lea...-in-composites
[2] https://www.plasticsengineering.org/...motive-005417/
[3] https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...59836813004228
[4] https://www.textileworld.com/textile...-and-mobility/
[5] https://www.espublisher.com/uploads/...19-es8d589.htm
[6] https://www.dysoncentre.eng.cam.ac.u...ry_smaller.pdf
[7] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5452774/
[8] https://www.safilin.fr/flax-as-an-al...glass/?lang=en
[9] https://www.innovationintextiles.com...ren-and-bcomp/

[NSXR]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Let's be real, most people are getting carbon fiber for the look.

This.

It has been proven time and time again that plastic composites can be lighter and stronger in the vast majority of situations, but they're ugly, so we have pretty CF weave.

Originally Posted by Canuck335

Perplexity AI is better for research like this.

AI is the new preacher in the pulpit, mixing fact with fallacy with such perfection that 98% of people can't tell the difference (have a look at the super nice cars in the church parking lot next time you stop by).

JUST SAY NO TO AI PARROTING.

[mustiej]

what in the flying fuck is this

[omasou]

We’ll know it’s equivalent or better when F1 starts using it.

EDIT: https://www.innovationintextiles.com...20regulations.

[thurston]

Couldn’t care less about any company’s carbon footprint.

I just want quality materials, including real leather.

[dumptruck]

Originally Posted by thurston

Couldn’t care less about any company’s carbon footprint.

I just want quality materials, including real leather.

For performance, leaded gas is better than unleaded gas.

[Tejas1836]

Originally Posted by thurston

Couldn’t care less about any company’s carbon footprint.

I just want quality materials, including real leather.

Originally Posted by dumptruck

For performance, leaded gas is better than unleaded gas.

Not with post '80ish engines.
E85 ≥ unleaded for performance with modern engines

[CFTOG2]

Such bullshit………take your biodegradable/ electric cars ….and all of the generation of kids who don’t want a 6 speed manual because they don’t know how and don’t want to learn about anything besides sitting on their ass all day playing video games. ……..Lick my droppings

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by omasou

We’ll know it’s equivalent or better when F1 starts using it.

EDIT: https://www.innovationintextiles.com...20regulations.

F1 has been a virtue signaling parrot for big money ventures for years. Once they started to downside motors and turbocharge them "to improve fuel economy" they lost their mojo and became another shill.

I'd almost believe it if it showed up in endurance racing like le.mans, but it's worth remembering that the bodywork being inexpensive is a huge benefit for them.

[Camarojames]

Another way to make something cheaper and cheaper looking

[marks1723]

Originally Posted by NSXR

A big part of the appeal of carbon fiber is the look, which is why forged carbon, and this natural fiber won't really take off. The only good thing (IMO) about the new types of fiber weave is that they will make the older type less expensive.

Originally Posted by Mavus

exactly and eaten often by rodents including on mil vehicles lol

[QUOTE=curtdragon;32163806]So the soy harnesses get eaten by mice etc. so now here go your soybon fiber parts too 😆

Well BMW will introduce the Ultimate Killing Machine Package, which are free roden traps that come free of charge with the purchase of a new vehicle 🤣

[KevinGS]

The many comments in this thread make me think of two quotes from an entrepreneurship book I'm reading:

"Any change, even a change for the better, is always accompanied by drawbacks and discomforts." - Arnold Bennett

"Never confuse the truth with the opinion of the masses." - Laurence Fishburne

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

The many comments in this thread make me think of two quotes from an entrepreneurship book I'm reading:

"Any change, even a change for the better, is always accompanied by drawbacks and discomforts." - Arnold Bennett

"Never confuse the truth with the opinion of the masses." - Laurence Fishburne

Nice quotes but in this case its change for the sake of cost cutting and virtue signaling.

[Mech Spec]

Carbon fiber is cheap and cheap to make. Im sure that the cost to bring up this sustainable process and the cost to make parts is actually higher than CF.

Only a completely manufacturing illiterate person would think that carbon fiber is "expensive"

Especially for the types of parts BMW uses carbon for on the body, its the cheapest way to make those parts at the volumes they are making them in.

Carbon fiber manufacturing was expensive... like 40 years ago.

[Brandoch]

Originally Posted by Mech Spec

Carbon fiber is cheap and cheap to make. Im sure that the cost to bring up this sustainable process and the cost to make parts is actually higher than CF.

Only a completely manufacturing illiterate person would think that carbon fiber is "expensive"

Especially for the types of parts BMW uses carbon for on the body, its the cheapest way to make those parts at the volumes they are making them in.

Carbon fiber manufacturing was expensive... like 40 years ago.

Of we all know that "cheap" and "carbon fiber" go together.
Duh!!!!!
An Eventuri S65 plenum is only like 3 grand. CHEAP!!!!!!

[GGP_m3]

Originally Posted by Mavus

exactly and eaten often by rodents including on mil vehicles lol

Imagine paying $1000+ for a flax fiber hood only to have it chewed up by a rat. Hell nah

[Mech Spec]

Originally Posted by Brandoch

Of we all know that "cheap" and "carbon fiber" go together.
Duh!!!!!
An Eventuri S65 plenum is only like 3 grand. CHEAP!!!!!!

Bro ur paying for their engineering and marketing, not the cheap ass fabric and epoxy.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Brandoch

Of we all know that "cheap" and "carbon fiber" go together.
Duh!!!!!
An Eventuri S65 plenum is only like 3 grand. CHEAP!!!!!!

Those are expensive not because of the manufacturing process, but because of the fact that they a) can sell them for that much and people will pay it, and b) they don't sell a lot of them and have to pay for their R&D costs.

A guy I knew made his own vacuum table and would 3d print molds to make CF parts for cars he owned. He said that clear coating the parts was the most intensive part.

[Mech Spec]

My brother made ultra high end carbon race bikes, and carbon fiber flying cars, and I am an expert in manufacturing and R&D.

I promise you without taking it more technical, carbon fiber is CHEEEAAPPP for what it is and what it does, but its seen as an advanced material so people charge high prices for it.

[Mr. Ocean]

Pathetic.