[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

Whats Tesla Plaid displacement? Or Taycans for that matter? Even though you or I may not like it that claim is no longer valid. Tuned M3s with inline six tend to be faster then tuned M5s with V8.

Well, let's play that game. According to numerous sources, Tesla's batteries displace between 400 to 1100 liters. It's a hell of a lot more than a 4.4 L V8 or a 3.0 L I6 that BMW uses. So I guess there is no replacement for displacement. At 1100 L, I would expect the Tesla to move faster. So let's give some credit where credit is due to the ICE power.

.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by thebmw

Well, let's play that game. Accord to numerous sources, Tesla's batteries displace between 400 to 1100 liters. It's a hell of a lot more than a 4.4 L V8 or a 3.0 L I6 that BMW uses. So I guess there is no replacement for displacement. At 1100 L, I would expect the Tesla to move faster.

Nice try. Love that analogy Going with that logic car with larger fuel tank capacity since it’s not source of power but merely what fuels the motor will be faster 🙃

[Rafichicago]

On more serious note:
engine’s displacement is not as relevant in today’s world as it used to be therefore I made a bit of fun with that saying you’ve used before. Small engines have tons of torque and power not to mention that vehicles curb weight matters a ton 🤣 in today’s world.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

Nice try. Love that analogy Going with that logic car with larger fuel tank capacity since it’s not source of power but merely what fuels the motor will be faster 🙃

I'm not sure you understand how battery packs work. Larger battery packs absolutely create more power, in addition to other variables, just like an engine. Sure they may create more distance too, but that's not the point here.

There are many variables that dictate power. But my point is simple, battery packs have enormous displacement that everyone seems to ignore and they think the displacement is zero.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by thebmw

I'm not sure you understand how battery packs work. Larger battery packs absolutely create more power, in addition to other variables, just like an engine. Sure they may create more distance too, but that's not the point here.

The way I understand it is that Tesla didn’t go from single or dual motor to tri motor setup my understanding is that if it was possible to achieve same level of performance utilizing dual motor setup, if adding more batteries would solve that, they would gladly save the money there but I am not expert on that.

[ChipXpert]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Yup, could have a ZR1 as a sports car, and a low 9 second EV sedan as a daily. The EV drivetrain advantage is made very clear in this video. The ZR1 makes more HP, weighs 1000lbs less, and still gets killed in trap speeds. A Taycan Turbo S, or Sapphure would be an even bigger beat down.

https://youtu.be/_6xIvtqdVsU?si=3RFgU2wS5h8moPsZ

I have an i4 M50 (2023) as my daily.
I have an M2 MT (2025) as my sports car.

[ChipXpert]

Originally Posted by ToysArs

I think the S58 is just a thirsty engine overall. I’m getting the same MPG in my ’25 M4 Competition xDrive as I did in my 575hp supercharged V8 AWD F-Type R

To make HP you burn fuel.
It makes no difference the displacement.
As small inline 6 with a turbo making 500hp is going to burn as much fuel as a V8 making the same power.

[KevinM]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Does it matter?
6MT is ancient and inadequate for the torque from modern BMW I6 and V8 engines. It's "walking dead".

Maybe. Okay, yes. But aside than the fact that BMW could use a MT than can handle increased torque, there are a lot of BMW enthusiasts who are happy with < 450 lb-ft and want the involvement of a MT. I am fully aware that in the near future this will be available in the used car market only (with a premium for the MT). Which is why I'm keeping my 2002 M5, 2007 Z4M coupe and 2020 M2C for the foreseeable future.

[spuntyb]

Hell yeah!

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by Tag

The new pre-chamber ignition design was first reported by German automobile magazine "Auto Motor und Sport" in 2024.

Original article: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/...erbrennung-v1/

Google Translated article: https://www-auto--motor--und--sport-...x_tr_hist=true

Didn't Maserati have this technology already in its MC20 3.0T engine?

[Tag]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Didn't Maserati have this technology already in its MC20 3.0T engine?

Yes, the MC20 engine however has two spark plugs. The new BMW pre-chamber engine design has one spark plug. They mention a separate ground electrode which might be their way of getting around having two spark plugs.

"Ignition is done by a spark plug with an ignition electrode and a separate ground electrode, which is part of the new invention"

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by KevinM

there are a lot of BMW enthusiasts who are happy with < 450 lb-ft and want the involvement of a MT.

How many people are you referring to? If there were a significant number of those people, BMW would likely build it. I’m quite certain they have a better understanding of the numbers than you do.

[freakystyly]

The shrinking number of models that offer manuals do have high take rates.

The WRX is around 80% manuals.

Golfs/GRI/R around 50%.

Civic R 100% (kindof cheating here).

The Blackwing twins have around 50%.

The Miata is generally always greater than 50%.

The BRZ/FRS twins are somewhere around 40%.

M2 generally around 50%.

BMW Z4 and Supra around 65% and relatively newly added too.

But yes, of course by volume it's a small number. There's more people behind the wheel disinterested in driving all together, let alone shifting their own gears like a cave man.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

How many people are you referring to? If there were a significant number of those people, BMW would likely build it. I’m quite certain they have a better understanding of the numbers than you do.

You both have valid points however if it was all about speed and power decent E46 M3 wouldn’t cost 45k

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by thebmw

I'm not sure you understand how battery packs work. Larger battery packs absolutely create more power, in addition to other variables, just like an engine. Sure they may create more distance too, but that's not the point here.

There are many variables that dictate power. But my point is simple, battery packs have enormous displacement that everyone seems to ignore and they think the displacement is zero.

Well, if you are going to go off on that tangent. How about all the other things that take up MORE space on an ICE car than an equivalent EV.

Muffler Volume: Just about every street legal gas car sold has a muffler. Necessary for the engine to be used on the street. How much volume is that.

Gas tank volume: EVs have a battery, but no gas tank

Center drive shaft and tunnel: EVs can be AWD without the center driveshaft and tunnel. Quite a bit of space wasted here.

And EV motor can be in a much smaller form factor: A Lucid air motor which can put out over 500hp, will fit in a carry on bag, and weigh less than 165lbs.

Alas, these are irrelevant comparisons, but no more than battery volume analogy. But if you think an EV drivetrain is a space wasting concept, you would be wrong. Hence a Tesla Model S has tons of rooms inside: flat floor, frunk, large below floor level storage in the hatch area, etc. Its because it doesn't need all those aforementioned parts (muffler, gas tank, center driveshaft, big engine, etc).

[KoenG]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

On more serious note:
engine’s displacement is not as relevant in today’s world as it used to be therefore I made a bit of fun with that saying you’ve used before. Small engines have tons of torque and power not to mention that vehicles curb weight matters a ton 🤣 in today’s world.

When you isolate ICE, since BEV is another world, I believe you understand that displacement is still a very important spec. You refer to "small engines having more power than bigger ones", but that's not the point. I presume that a 1.5l engine can produce 800hp for a short time, but the drivability and dynamic output will be poor at best and certainly doesn't make it better than for example the S63 with 585hp.

I do agree, that Hybrid can mask some of the flaws of a small block.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by KoenG

When you isolate ICE, since BEV is another world, I believe you understand that displacement is still a very important spec. You refer to "small engines having more power than bigger ones", but that's not the point. I presume that a 1.5l engine can produce 800hp for a short time, but the drivability and dynamic output will be poor at best and certainly doesn't make it better than for example the S63 with 585hp.

I do agree, that Hybrid can mask some of the flaws of a small block.

We own F90 M5 and i like many things about it over G80 M3 however if it comes to performance differences are marginal even between those 2. With modern cars difference is smaller then its ever been. IMO no replacement for displacement saying is less and less true. Especially with modern cars curb weight getting to ridiculous levels. Hp per tonne tells more about what to expect with modern car’s performance.

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by Adler11th

No more 2035 ev only mandate? Seems like Germany doesn’t want to wreck their economy

Canada plugs its ears…
“Lalalalala - I can’t hear you!”

[Blue Angel]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

And from what standpoint is that claim ?

Mercedes

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by samsamdar

We gotta take what we can get at this point 😭😭

Nah, if an automaker doesn't offer what I want,I don't buy anything. If I want a manual sedan and you don't offer it, too bad for you. I don't need to buy your car, you need to sell.me cars. I don't care if it's some corrupt government telling you that you can't sell it or what,I only buy what I want, not what someone else wants me to have.

[F32Fleet]

Factory fill will be 0w-4. (Sarc)

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by KevinM

Maybe. Okay, yes. But aside than the fact that BMW could use a MT than can handle increased torque

Bingo - BMW should invest into an upgraded MT.
It's long overdue.
Until it does (and I'm less and less sure that it will), I'll remain lukewarm on the MT value proposition. And this coming from a guy who has had MT cars since E30 days.

Originally Posted by KevinM

there are a lot of BMW enthusiasts who are happy with < 450 lb-ft and want the involvement of a MT.

Driving a manual is really much more fun in an underpowered car.
In a car with 400+ HP or lb-fts, it's less of a challenge/reward. You can shift the car into any gear and it will pull like a train from 800 RPMs to redline. Shift, rinse, repeat.

There are a lot of VOCAL enthusiasts who claim to love MT, but sales numbers don't back that up.

I would not trade performance degradation just to pay for an outdated 6MT.
If BMW were to upgrade its manuals, I would consider changing my mind.

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

You both have valid points however if it was all about speed and power decent E46 M3 wouldn’t cost 45k

And a decent E30 M3 wouldn't cost $75+K.
But that's nastalgia-driven and not performance-based pricing.

YMMV,
a