[vbb]

The new 911 Carrera S, which is the most popular variant of 911 sold in North America, has an MSRP of $149K, and can easily stretch over $175K with "reasonable" options.

For a reference point, this website gives a rough estimate of household income percentiles in the US: https://dqydj.com/household-income-p...le-calculator/

Yes, there's inflation. Yes, there are tariffs. Yes it just costs more for everything now compared to 5 or 10 years ago. That all said, I'm no longer sure what the profile is of a 911 buyer these days.

To me, the 911 has always been the benchmark in sports cars. It's the one that the drivers want. It's the one that a someone with a good career, but also things like a mortgage and college tuition for the kids could afford. These are the people that live in a nice neighborhood, but only have one home, go on vacations but fly coach, still carry around a discount card for the grocery store... those kind of successful regular people. At least that's what the 911 has always represented to me. Now, I don't know?

I feel fortunate to have experienced 911 ownership. I've had two, each bought used, and enjoyed both. For the longest time I've thought about getting another one, either new, or used but just as I would have spec'd it... but I fear this car has drifted out of reach for me. I guess these cars are truly for the top 1% these days.

[Vindicator3]

Originally Posted by vbb

It's the one that a someone with a good career, but also things like a mortgage and college tuition for the kids could afford. These are the people that live in a nice neighborhood, but only have one home, go on vacations but fly coach, still carry around a discount card for the grocery store... those kind of successful regular people.

Not that I've given it tons of deep thought, or ever owned a 911, but in my mind the 911 left that demo behind 15-20 years ago or so. Of course, that's just me.

[ash_schwin]

Agreed, glad I have had the experience of owning a 911 but the more I hope to be able to spec a dream 911 in the future, the further out of reach it seems based on the pricing.

[ctelimad]

Originally Posted by ash_schwin

Agreed, glad I have had the experience of owning a 911 but the more I hope to be able to spec a dream 911 in the future, the further out of reach it seems based on the pricing.

I just got my 718 gts 4.0 although not cheap but gives me the real porsche experience NA without paying north of 200k for a carrera s that looks ok and perform ok but has numb , boring fast car
i would rather get a m4 cs for 50k less
I have multiple cars including an g90 M5 as a daily and X5 and yes i can afford a 911 turbo s but i can not justify the pricing of the car close to a lambo or a ferrari
I may pay the price for a spyder rs or gt3 but can not justify 280k for a turbo s or 200k for carrera s

I dont think it is only if you can afford the car , more if it is worth the price and i think it is great car but not work 200k for sure unless it is a gt3..

[dgoldenz]

Personally I didn't even like the 992 as much as the 991.1 and 997.2, I've had them all. Considering the price difference, it's not even a question for me. You can still get an awesome used 911 well under $100k. If they ever bring back an NA 911 I'd be interested in something newer, but I'm just not a big fan of the turbo'd engines. They are too fast, too smooth, and the sound sucks compared to NA. I've had a bunch of 911's and the 997.2 is probably my favorite platform. At current price levels, the 992 just doesn't make sense with what else is out there. You can get a decent 458 for the price of a new 992 S.

[JerseyM3]

Originally Posted by Vindicator3

Not that I've given it tons of deep thought, or ever owned a 911, but in my mind the 911 left that demo behind 15-20 years ago or so. Of course, that's just me.

Totally. I always put Porsche anything at the top but I never included those with discount grocery cards as their customer. It's always been the guy with the beach house to me who is passionate about driving than a look-at-me status symbol.

[BlkGS]

Porsche is aiming for "more money than sense". Finance bros basically.

Here's the big problem with Porsche right now. Their prices have gotten exorbitant while they haven't improved the cars by as much. Compare a 997 to a C6 Corvette, you could see where the money difference went (I know this because I had a C6 and my dad a 997.2S), the interior was nicer materials, the features were more refined, they were pushing tech in places like the PDK. It was still slower than the Corvette both in a line and on a track (we tested it), but it was also a more comfortable and upscale inside.

Now, Porsche enjoys no such advantage really. Sure you can spec $50k worth of extra leather in it. But reality is, the quality delta isn't very large. And let's not even get started on who is buying a Cayman vs a C8...

That said, Porsche has built themselves up to a status symbol brand, the kind of thing like Ferrari where people just want to be associated with the brand. And the finance bro class made a LOT of money the past 4 years, and has been making more and more money over the past decades. So they're gonna keep buying to flex, and Porsche will keep charging more.


That said, the OP's perspective on who 911 buyers are is just wrong. They have always been doctors, executives, hedge fund managers, and other high level people. In Office Space Bill Lumbergh drove a 911, and he was the VP of the whole company Initech. There were some people who were more "normal" that bought them, but usually that was a very used one, their prices used to CRATER after 3ish years because they weren't really very reliable, and the people who wanted them wanted a new one. That's been the biggest change, now people want a fortune for them used because even if they sell their 3 year old 911 for it's original MSRP that's a huge discount from what a new one would cost because MSRP has jumped so much.

[vbb]

Originally Posted by JerseyM3

Totally. I always put Porsche anything at the top but I never included those with discount grocery cards as their customer. It's always been the guy with the beach house to me who is passionate about driving than a look-at-me status symbol.

Yeah, maybe my initial impression is off. But people in the "top 5%" of earners (according to the link I posted) are typically not those that have multiple homes and extravagances... that seems to be more top 1% or maybe 2% stuff. Yet I never really imagined that's where the 911 sat. It has long since been referred to a "dentist's car" which are typically people that make good money, but still swipe their grocery story discount card when shopping. Not the wall street, private equity types.

[bosstones]

Not me. That's all I know.

The good thing is that I have little interest in the current 911 lineup (agnostic to price). FI and aspects of the design don't do it for me. Top it off with current pricing and it's a trifecta of 'nope'.

Perhaps I am old now but 964, 997.2, and 991.1 are where my mind is set. Currently doing the latter but would still love to get into the other two. More likely, a 981 would be a future stablemate. 718 doesn't do it for me (aside from the GTS). I'd rock a 928, too, though.

This is all to say that I would happily bankrupt myself in pursuit of what I view as automotive bliss.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by vbb

Yeah, maybe my initial impression is off. But people in the "top 5%" of earners (according to the link I posted) are typically not those that have multiple homes and extravagances... that seems to be more top 1% or maybe 2% stuff. Yet I never really imagined that's where the 911 sat. It has long since been referred to a "dentist's car" which are typically people that make good money, but still swipe their grocery story discount card when shopping. Not the wall street, private equity types.

The top percentages are a lot closer than you expect. We say 1%er expecting it to be like all bezos and those types, but $300k is very in range for a lot of doctors and is 2%. Just over 250k is top 3%. 200k is 4%.

1% is 430k a year. That's a lot of money for sure, but is DWARFED by celebrities, CEOs, etc.

[vbb]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The top percentages are a lot closer than you expect. We say 1%er expecting it to be like all bezos and those types, but $300k is very in range for a lot of doctors and is 2%. Just over 250k is top 3%. 200k is 4%.

1% is 430k a year. That's a lot of money for sure, but is DWARFED by celebrities, CEOs, etc.

That's why I posted the link for reference. According to that particular resource, $300k is in the top 5%-6% Nationwide, not the top 2%. I mean not that it matters for the discussion necessarily, but I think your percentages are different than what I've researched. That said, where in the country you live and housing costs are major variables.

[Socal_R8]

what's the difference between a Porsche and a porcupine ???


lol.... as a previous owner of a couple of Porsches (although not the pretentious 911) I can tell this joke





A- The prick is on the outside of the porcupine



The value in Porsches is in the used ones..... can get most 911's half off sticker for a 4 year old one.

Buy the right used one(a manual) and drive it for free for a few years.

[XutvJet]

Yes, the new 911 pricing is getting out of control and Porsche will soon realize that it is not sustainable. Really, all the Porsche sports car pricing is dumb.

As an avid Porsche fan that wanted some new school-ness in an older Porsche and get an affordable one at that, I decided to get one of the most reliable Porsches ever made, a 2011 987.2 Cayman Base 6MT. That car cost me $31K back in October 2022. That car is beyond exciting and you can drive it hard on the street and not be out of control or going stupid fast like you can in the new ones. It has the right soundtrack with the flat 6 and the intake sitting right behind your left ear. Sometimes sounding and feeling fast is good enough. I've learned that over the years.

987/997 cars are the last true old school Porsches and arguably the most fun to drive. Knowing what I know now about these cars after doing various service/maintenance/repair work to my Cayman, I'd probably buy a mint 987.1 or 997.1 with a bore scored motor for $12-25K and send the motor out to be rebuilt into a high revving 3.8-4.0 liter making 380-400hp in a 3000-3200lb car ($30k-35K for the motor). Dropping the motor and trans on these cars is cake and is literally plug and play with a built motor swap, even down to the ECU. All in, you could make a 987/997 into a present day 911S - GTS killer for $50k-70K that also makes all the right noises, just the right amount of NVH, just the right amount of creature comforts, and not a ton of the silly tech and isolation of the newer cars.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

what's the difference between a Porsche and a porcupine ???


lol.... as a previous owner of a couple of Porsches (although not the pretentious 911) I can tell this joke





A- The prick is on the outside of the porcupine



The value in Porsches is in the used ones..... can get most 911's half off sticker for a 4 year old one.

Buy the right used one(a manual) and drive it for free for a few years.

You definitely aren't getting a 4 year old 911 anywhere near half of original sticker. You'd be lucky to get a 15 year old 911 with 50k miles on it for half of sticker.

[Alfisti]

A lot to cover here..........

Originally Posted by vbb

The new 911 Carrera S, which is the most popular variant of 911 sold in North America, has an MSRP of $149K, and can easily stretch over $175K with "reasonable" options.

It's the one that a someone with a good career, but also things like a mortgage and college tuition for the kids could afford. These are the people that live in a nice neighborhood, but only have one home, go on vacations but fly coach, still carry around a discount card for the grocery store... those kind of successful regular people. At least that's what the 911 has always represented to me. Now, I don't know?

The question is what do they cost now vs 15 years ago adjusted for inflation? I am also not sold on your target buyer from years gone by, admittedly in the USA things are different to everywhere else but they have been very expensive for a LONG time. My 2009 PDK Cab has a MSRP nudging $100K USD. These have been highly aspirational cars for a long time and well beyond the "doing bit better than ok" crowd if we are talking new.

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

You can still get an awesome used 911 well under $100k. You can get a decent 458 for the price of a new 992 S.

If we start at the 997.2, because the .1 blows up and the 996 is generally the ugly duckling (and also blows up), yeah you can find them for under $100K, nearly half that for a cab/pdk, but you're talking about 15 year old cars. A clean, stick, coupe with under 30K miles .... you're nudging 6 figures quickly.

The cheapest 458 in America is $160K, now we are talking 15 year old Ferrari maintenance.......

Originally Posted by BlkGS

the interior was nicer materials, the features were more refined, they were pushing tech in places like the PDK. It was still slower than the Corvette both in a line and on a track (we tested it), but it was also a more comfortable and upscale inside.

Now, Porsche enjoys no such advantage really. Sure you can spec $50k worth of extra leather in it. But reality is, the quality delta isn't very large. And let's not even get started on who is buying a Cayman vs a C8...

That said, the OP's perspective on who 911 buyers are is just wrong. They have always been doctors, executives, hedge fund managers, and other high level people.

Have you been in a 992 interior? It is spectacular in it's build quality. The car is refined and built well, arguably too refined but there's still a pretty decent gap to a new C8.

Agree on the buyer profile.

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

The value in Porsches is in the used ones..... can get most 911's half off sticker for a 4 year old one.

Eh? Going back to the oldest "modern" 911 worth buying, the 997.2, and you're still way over 50% of the new price at 60,000 miles. Some, like a stick GTS, are now above MSRP from 2011. These things hold their price extremely stubbornly and far better than the Cayman/Boxster.

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Yes, the new 911 pricing is getting out of control and Porsche will soon realize that it is not sustainable. Really, all the Porsche sports car pricing is dumb.

I'd probably buy a mint 987.1 or 997.1 with a bore scored motor for $12-25K and send the motor out to be rebuilt into a high revving 3.8-4.0 liter making 380-400hp in a 3000-3200lb car ($30k-35K for the motor). Dropping the motor and trans on these cars is cake and is literally plug and play with a built motor swap, even down to the ECU. All in, you could make a 987/997 into a present day 911S - GTS killer for $50k-70K that also makes all the right noises, just the right amount of NVH, just the right amount of creature comforts, and not a ton of the silly tech and isolation of the newer cars.

Is it dumb though? I mean it is if sales drop to a level that doesn't cover the revenue delta of the extra pricing but is it?

On a rebuild, a ground up engine is $40K, roller will still be $35 to $40K though, not getting it anywhere near $15K.



Posting all that I sound like an apologist, I am not. Comparing new cars with new cars, which is all that counts, if you want a sports car, an actual sports car not a GT car, what are your options on the nicer side? Lotus? Americans are too risk averse to buy a Lotus. Maserati MC20? $$$$$$$$$. Next step up gets VERY expensive very quickly, most McLarens and Ferrari are near double the price of a 911.

Realistically, as a buyer, you're deciding between a 3T Supra or stepping up to a 911, there's a big gap there.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Have you been in a 992 interior? It is spectacular in it's build quality. The car is refined and built well, arguably too refined but there's still a pretty decent gap to a new C8.

Agree on the buyer profile.

I have. It's. A very nice place to be. So was the 991 and 997. My point is the delta of "niceness" between Corvette, BMW, etc. and 911 has shrunk while the price delta has grown.

[Alfisti]

A 992 interior is so far removed from a 997 it is not even worth discussing. LIGHT YEARS.

Even for 2009 the 997 interior was pretty bang average unless you ticked every fucking box.

[Humdizzle]

They have definitely gone nutty in price.

If i sold my 2018 GT3 today i wouldn't be looking at another 911.

The new GT3s haven't improved enough imo. new front suspension and more downforce aren't enough to justify this price hike. its the same weight and engine.

C8 z06, R8 v10, huracan, 458 would all be in my consideration before going to a 992.2. Even a cayman gts 4.0 is a better driving experience. These cars aren't crazy expensive to maintain either. My 2010 458 annual service costs were the same as my 2018 gt3.

They are not as refined as a 992 but i dont want my sports car to be some refined experience thats comfortable to road trip or daily drive... i will buy a second car for that.

[M-technik-3]

Could afford one a few years back aka 25 years ago and these days I'd rather just rent one on vacation. Sad thing is even the older air cooled ones I'd like have spiked to stupid levels that I won't bother to search out one.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

You definitely aren't getting a 4 year old 911 anywhere near half of original sticker. You'd be lucky to get a 15 year old 911 with 50k miles on it for half of sticker.

ok, maybe not a 4 year old but plenty of 7 year old 991's that are half the price of the new ones that are about $160k on up....

I personally like the 991 better than the 992 aesthetically inside and out.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

A lot to cover here..........



The question is what do they cost now vs 15 years ago adjusted for inflation? I am also not sold on your target buyer from years gone by, admittedly in the USA things are different to everywhere else but they have been very expensive for a ......







Eh? Going back to the oldest "modern" 911 worth buying, the 997.2, and you're still way over 50% of the new price at 60,000 miles. Some, like a stick GTS, are now above MSRP from 2011. These things hold their price extremely stubbornly and far better than the Cayman/Boxster.





.

ok maybe exagerated a bit with the 4 year old example, but go a lil bit older like 2017ish


like I said, buy the right one and you can drive it for free...

but there are plenty of nice 991's out there for less than half the cost of a new 992.


997's are in the 40's these days and 991's are in the 50's nowadays.(for autos)

which are about half the original price and 1/3 the price of a new one.


clean white 991 asking $59K here....

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ckType=listing

or perhaps a red one for you ....

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ckType=listing


I love the look of the 991's

[erickonphoenix]

There's an old old saying, "you'll never go broke soaking the rich".

Great cars though, I'm glad there are people that can afford them or they wouldn't make them. There's a lady that has a 992 Targa the next neighborhood over and I smile every time I see it.