[c1pher]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

Personally I didn't even like the 992 as much as the 991.1 and 997.2, I've had them all. Considering the price difference, it's not even a question for me. You can still get an awesome used 911 well under $100k. If they ever bring back an NA 911 I'd be interested in something newer, but I'm just not a big fan of the turbo'd engines. They are too fast, too smooth, and the sound sucks compared to NA. I've had a bunch of 911's and the 997.2 is probably my favorite platform. At current price levels, the 992 just doesn't make sense with what else is out there. You can get a decent 458 for the price of a new 992 S.

It’s funny you mention this. I’ve owned three 911s. First one was 991.2, second one I was offered an allocation so got to build my own 992. I liked it but kept missing the 991.2. So I traded the 992 and eventually found a 991.2 that was close to what I wanted.

I think although Porsche already turns one of the highest profits of all marques, the Covid era made them realize people were willing to pay even more and the dealer was getting the money, not Porsche. The thing is the prices have increased and the dealers are still doing ADM, mandatory PPF, ceramic, tire insurance, watch purchase etc especially for the GT cars. It seems like they can’t move vehicles so now are offering discounts on the commoner Porsches like Macans and Cayennes.

Porsche is trying to differentiate the 718 from the 911 and taking the 911 in more of a luxury direction or at least it seems so. I owned a 718 4.0 and regret selling it because it is that special. But my 991.2 GTS is an incredible car and has a number of extras like rear steer, PDCC etc that Porsche purposely won’t offer on the 718. But the 718 sounds good, revs high, handles incredibly, shifts awesome….pure sports car.

[mjj]

I recently read in Motor Trend, the AVERAGE income, not median of a 992 911 buyer was something like $850K a year. The median income would be much lower but that still suggests this is not a car for anyone outside the top 1-2%.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

A 992 interior is so far removed from a 997 it is not even worth discussing. LIGHT YEARS.

Even for 2009 the 997 interior was pretty bang average unless you ticked every fucking box.

I have a 997.2 GTS with full leather interior and I think it’s better than the 992. Wasn’t a fan of the digital gauges and CarPlay kept freezing and resetting itself. Weirdly, I also thought the alcantara seemed lower quality with more wear at low mileage than the 991/997. The simplicity of a 997.2 interior is glorious. Even have to turn on the lights every time yourself and insert and turn the key like God intended.

[x622]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

A lot to cover here..........



The question is what do they cost now vs 15 years ago adjusted for inflation? I am also not sold on your target buyer from years gone by, admittedly in the USA things are different to everywhere else but they have been very expensive for a LONG time. My 2009 PDK Cab has a MSRP nudging $100K USD. These have been highly aspirational cars for a long time and well beyond the "doing bit better than ok" crowd if we are talking new.



If we start at the 997.2, because the .1 blows up and the 996 is generally the ugly duckling (and also blows up), yeah you can find them for under $100K, nearly half that for a cab/pdk, but you're talking about 15 year old cars. A clean, stick, coupe with under 30K miles .... you're nudging 6 figures quickly.

The cheapest 458 in America is $160K, now we are talking 15 year old Ferrari maintenance.......



Have you been in a 992 interior? It is spectacular in it's build quality. The car is refined and built well, arguably too refined but there's still a pretty decent gap to a new C8.

Agree on the buyer profile.



Eh? Going back to the oldest "modern" 911 worth buying, the 997.2, and you're still way over 50% of the new price at 60,000 miles. Some, like a stick GTS, are now above MSRP from 2011. These things hold their price extremely stubbornly and far better than the Cayman/Boxster.




Is it dumb though? I mean it is if sales drop to a level that doesn't cover the revenue delta of the extra pricing but is it?

On a rebuild, a ground up engine is $40K, roller will still be $35 to $40K though, not getting it anywhere near $15K.



Posting all that I sound like an apologist, I am not. Comparing new cars with new cars, which is all that counts, if you want a sports car, an actual sports car not a GT car, what are your options on the nicer side? Lotus? Americans are too risk averse to buy a Lotus. Maserati MC20? $$$$$$$$$. Next step up gets VERY expensive very quickly, most McLarens and Ferrari are near double the price of a 911.

Realistically, as a buyer, you're deciding between a 3T Supra or stepping up to a 911, there's a big gap there.

lol Porsche build quality. I remember my squeaks, creaks and rattles of my 992. I remember all the times I've been in other 992s and head it. I remember the issues I had with my TCU. I remember all the issues I've seen in my shop with other 992s.

Yeah sure.

[NickyC]

Anytime I feel bummed out about not owning a GT3 at this point in my life, I think about just how fortunate I am to own what I have in a world that is very cruel to the vast majority of its inhabitants. The older I get, the more I appreciate what I have, and I find myself not really caring about a GT3 any longer.

[Arcades]

You will be surprised by some Porsche build quality. They are all fallible. My previous GT4 come with plastic pieces that are completely deformed and somehow port inspection missed it. There are stories all over the place for Porsche. The more you get into the brand, the more problems you see, that is usually the case. Since their products come from all over the EU, it is impossible for them to control it. Especially with how the world is currently, finding a quality part without issues is difficult.

Taycan (a lot) and even the Macan EV (already) have had recalls and stop sales. 718 GT4/Spyder/GTS 4.0 had a recall for an engine issue for late 2023 builds. The 991.1 GT3 had its entire build run recalled due to a manufacturing defect (aka engine grenading itself).

Among other things like squeaks, creaks etc is common. Regardless of which brand you have. Every single one of my Macan had something wrong on delivery. My current 24 Macan front windshield has an issue Porsche won't fix (hairline cracks) all over the front. It is one of the layers having a defect but they won't fix it because it is hard to spot. Porsche also been more stern on warranty recently, mainly because of their own finances (and more so VW).

Don't believe in income of their buyers Porsche releases. Believe me, number of that won't matter. They do have a lot of wealthy buyers of course, that is true but you be surprised how many are just regular folks. They just have their things in order and can spend a little bit on something pricey. Most dealers care for 1 thing. Your credit score, that tells the dealer everything they need to know about you and if they can trust you.

[baege]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Anytime I feel bummed out about not owning a GT3 at this point in my life, I think about just how fortunate I am to own what I have in a world that is very cruel to the vast majority of its inhabitants. The older I get, the more I appreciate what I have, and I find myself not really caring about a GT3 any longer.

yeah just suffer on in your M4 CS lol!

sometimes I think this way as well, but then again aspiration and goals are good things in life so why not fuel the desire for a GT3?

and if you let the passion go, and say I dont need a GT3, where do you draw the line, whats the good enough car that you can be thankful for and not desire something `better`? maybe a GR corolla would be enough? or even a civic hatch manual?

hedonic adaptation is a bitch and I have noticed that no matter the car, you will get used to it, and once you get used to it, is there really that much difference in your baseline happiness? so for example my move from the M2 comp to the Cayman GTS 4.0, at first the GTS 4.0 blew me away with the sound and great manual, but six months later I was used to it

and when I think about the enjoyment I got from from the M2 vs the GTS 4.0 AFTER hedonic adaptation had done its dirty work and the experience had normalized, there honestly wasnt a big difference in the enjoyment I got from either

both were beautiful cars I looked back at that sounded good and handled well that I looked forward to driving

you have to go way down the totem pole to experience a real difference

so for example when I had the base corolla rental and jumped back in the M2 comp which I had already had for a while and gotten used to, it was like WHOA this is a whole nother level

but will a GT3 AFTER hedonic adaptation really be that much more enjoyable than an M2 comp?


I honestly dont know but I find myself still wanting to find out

[BlkGS]

Another point I will make. The obsession with Porsches here is unique to BMW guys. No other forum I've been on has the same "Porsche can do no wrong" as this one. Even 6 speed online, a literal Porsche based forum, doesn't think as highly of them as this forum.

I dunno what it is, but BMW owners get crazy about Porsches. Bring up how X5 is better than Cayenne and it destroys the world view of BMW owners who think the Cayenne must be better. Bring up that Macan is a glorified hatchback and the SQ5 is the better value and BMW owners lose their minds.

It's weird. Say to a Corvette guy the 911 is better and he'll say "never seen someone swap a 911 motor into a Corvette but you do you". Tell the Corvette guy the Corvette is better and they'll say "I wouldn't mind having both". But say something like "the M8 is a better car than a 911" and you're gonna have some seriously upset BMW owners insisting the BMW isn't as good.

It's like hero worship or something. Y'all need Jesus. Or therapy. Or tequila.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by mjj

I recently read in Motor Trend, the AVERAGE income, not median of a 992 911 buyer was something like $850K a year. The median income would be much lower but that still suggests this is not a car for anyone outside the top 1-2%.

i can believe that.

I bought my 1st Porsche (Boxster) in Jan 2002. My 2nd (Cayman S) in April 2009. My 3rd (used 2003 996 Turbo) in June 2009. (The Cayman S was destroyed by a driver losing control in the rain and slamming into the side of my 4 week old Cayman S.)

My Porsche experience ended Dec. 2017 when I bought a couple of other cars and sold off my Boxster and Turbo

While I don't recall the exact point in time during my time owning Porsche cars at some point I read where the average income for a Porsche owner was $300K a year.

I recall someone online making a comment that take Bill Gates out of consideration and the average income drops to $150K a year...

Before ending my Porsche ownership experience and looking at new (mostly 911s) and and low miles/not very old used cars prices had jumped up tremendously.

[Alfisti]

Naaaaah most folks here are pretty pragmatic, BMW has always been (well was) the more sporty option of the 3 Germans so Porsche is a natural step up. My point I guess is a) I am not sure they are priced any higher than they were inflation adjusted 20 years ago (may be but i'd like to see the data) and b) what are the alternatives?

Feel like the Supra is the coupe option and maybe the Z4 for the drop top but does BMW make a sort of sportier Z4 these days?

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Naaaaah most folks here are pretty pragmatic, BMW has always been (well was) the more sporty option of the 3 Germans so Porsche is a natural step up. My point I guess is a) I am not sure they are priced any higher than they were inflation adjusted 20 years ago (may be but i'd like to see the data) and b) what are the alternatives?

Feel like the Supra is the coupe option and maybe the Z4 for the drop top but does BMW make a sort of sportier Z4 these days?

Corvette, M8, AMG GT, Mercedes SL, Jag F Type (do they make this still?), Lexus LC...

Admittedly, the sports coupe market is all but dead, with a few survivors fighting over scraps of a once sizeable market.

[BroDoze]

Turbo S or GT2 for me. Keep the rest.

[Mech Spec]

The Emira is an interesting alternative to the 718, but when I was exploring buying an Evora, the lack of any semblance of dealer network really made it hard to justify going that route.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by baege

yeah just suffer on in your M4 CS lol!

sometimes I think this way as well, but then again aspiration and goals are good things in life so why not fuel the desire for a GT3?

and if you let the passion go, and say I dont need a GT3, where do you draw the line, whats the good enough car that you can be thankful for and not desire something `better`? maybe a GR corolla would be enough? or even a civic hatch manual?

hedonic adaptation is a bitch and I have noticed that no matter the car, you will get used to it, and once you get used to it, is there really that much difference in your baseline happiness? so for example my move from the M2 comp to the Cayman GTS 4.0, at first the GTS 4.0 blew me away with the sound and great manual, but six months later I was used to it

and when I think about the enjoyment I got from from the M2 vs the GTS 4.0 AFTER hedonic adaptation had done its dirty work and the experience had normalized, there honestly wasnt a big difference in the enjoyment I got from either

both were beautiful cars I looked back at that sounded good and handled well that I looked forward to driving

you have to go way down the totem pole to experience a real difference

so for example when I had the base corolla rental and jumped back in the M2 comp which I had already had for a while and gotten used to, it was like WHOA this is a whole nother level

but will a GT3 AFTER hedonic adaptation really be that much more enjoyable than an M2 comp?


I honestly dont know but I find myself still wanting to find out

any car will eventually feel old as you get used to it. Then you move on to the next thing and at some point you miss some characteristics about it. The key to this is having a different car to daily drive and taking out the nice car only for leisure. If i drove my gt3 every day i'd probably start hating it, noticing all the flaws, the stick is weightier than the bmw ones and a chore in stop and go, etc etc.

the other issue is that you get diminishing returns as you move up in the car world. You have cars like the GR86 which is one of the most fun cars i've ever driven, and its costs 30k. My GT3 is certainly not delivering 6x more fun. And i'd also guess a bugatti chiron isn't delivering 5x the fun of a modern entry level exotic

[FJJB]

I think there is a lot to OP's post here, and certainly mirrors my experience (or probably better said non-experience) with the 911 and Porsche more broadly.

I probably meet the target demographic pretty squarely. At the end of the date I'm car guy looking for a second vehicle out of the box, "do-it-all" (weekend drives, auto-x and light track) sports car, who is willing to put up with some compromises for character. Not sure anyone delivers better on this than Porsche.

I've watched the 911 (new and used) market since 2010 and about 6 months ago basically stopped on the basis it was waste of time. Back in 2010 I started looking at 993s as they were performance bargains at time (hard to believe now) right before values started escalating. Then moved on to 997.2 and 987.2 Caymans never found anything that hit the sweet spot, and the GT3 prices never really came down meaningfully. 991 and 992 GT3 prices have always been astronomical to me, and while I love the T model in both the 911 and the Cayman (I'm a total sucker for fabric door handles), the 911T is too dear and I've not found an actionable Cayman T for sale.

Thinking about it a bit more, as much as those cars seem perfect for me on paper I'm just not willing to pay the P-tax and keep ending up in a used drivers spec M product. I know I'm paying a weight and sharpness / steering feel penalty but ultimately I'm happy with my slightly roomier car for less money.

When looking around at my friends with Porsche vehicles it similarly interested. The 911 owners are definitely using their cars as grand tourer / automotive jewelry type rides either because their aren't interested in driving hard or they have other cars for that purpose. Others who used to run their PCars hard, have moved on the Cayenne as a hot rod SUV and seem happy with a crossover with a nice motor that can take some backroad corners when asked.

Maybe this is just a long-winded plea for the return of the 914/944....

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Corvette, M8, AMG GT, Mercedes SL, Jag F Type (do they make this still?), Lexus LC....

3 of those are GT cars not sports cars, the AMG GT is not far off the price of a 911. Now the Corvette though, that's the option i missed, what's a second from the bottom spec run you?

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

3 of those are GT cars not sports cars, the AMG GT is not far off the price of a 911. Now the Corvette though, that's the option i missed, what's a second from the bottom spec run you?

Arguably the 911 is a GT car as well.

C8 starts at 70, a loaded base model (3LT) is 81k, the 2LT is a couple grand less (they repeat this same 1Lx, 2Lx, 3Lx thing across the range). Step up to an e ray and that starts at 108, loaded is like 120. These are all MSRP of course, you'd get a discount from that. Base car is 500hp DCT (that will probably break), e ray is 650hp and AWD-ish. The electric motor drives the front wheels with the ICE on the back. It's also a PHEV. Sub 3 second 0-60. You can spend even more for the flat plane crank C8Z too. And then there's the ZR1 with 1000hp.

You definitely get more room in the 911, but it's a GT car, not a sports car to me.

[Alfisti]

The 911 is still more sports car than GT, it leaves the GT cars for dead around corners, it's just practical and refined but it has the cornering chops the heavier and larger cars on that list do not.

The vette is the comparison I was after, so let's call it $75K for a 3LT after discounts, a 911S is damn near double that no? My issue with the vette is it is ugly, really big car with less practicality and no 2+2 but if those things don't bother you it is a no brainer.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by FJJB

Maybe this is just a long-winded plea for the return of the 914/944....

987.2 Cayman and make it your own. You can pick good condition ones up for $30K-40K. These cars are ROBUST, especially the base models. Closed deck block, forged everything, dry sump, excellent cooling, and a beefy 6MT. The biggest downside, especially if you're coming from the turbo world, is the difficulty in adding power. You can do headers and a tune, but at best, that might get you 15-20whp for thousands of the dollars. There's really no other way to gain power other than punching out the motor. But even in stock form, these cars are quick. The Base will do lower-mid 13s and the S upper 12s. These cars aren't about speed though. Handling and momentum.

The amount of rubber necking, "nice car", thumbs up, gas station talks, etc. I get from every age group, sex, and race is truly boggling. Most people think it's a six figure car.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

The 911 is still more sports car than GT, it leaves the GT cars for dead around corners, it's just practical and refined but it has the cornering chops the heavier and larger cars on that list do not.

The vette is the comparison I was after, so let's call it $75K for a 3LT after discounts, a 911S is damn near double that no? My issue with the vette is it is ugly, really big car with less practicality and no 2+2 but if those things don't bother you it is a no brainer.

The Cayman S should be compared to the standard Vette. They're both 2 seat mid-engine sports cars. A Cayman is not built worse than a same year 911 and it certainly isn't less in terms of quality of materials.

[kudos]

I'd take a C7 Z06 over any C8.

[x622]

Originally Posted by kudos

I'd take a C7 Z06 over any C8.

"I'd rather overheat than blow a tranny"