[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

This is not a tax loophole. It may legal in Montana, but in general Montana laws have no validity in the other states where people are garaging their Montana registered cars. Unless the other state has an exception that allows a resident to apply a law from Montana, the other state is 100% justified in going after the tax evader.

You are wrong because the LLC is an entity which owns the car,. Just because that entity is in Montana doesn't change that fact and there's no direct ownership of the car by the individual that lives in another state. Let's say you work for Facebook and they give you a company car to drive around. It's in your garage, but Facebook owns the car. Does it have to be registered in your state if it's already registered in CA where Facebook is headquartered? Explain the difference between these two scenarios.

[pbonsalb]

Tell us what business the Montana LLC does in the other state and why it has a car there.

Do I think you will be caught? Not necessarily. Most tax fraud is not caught. Do I think some will be caught? Yes. How will the cases play out in court? I don’t know, but am curious.

You seem pretty confident, so you should go for it. Greed is the American way for many, including, unfortunately, some of our politicians.

[Mech Spec]

Around here if cops notice you out of state parked in the area for more than 2 weeks they will give you ticket that your car must be registered in ma within 30 days or you will be impounded.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Tell us what business the Montana LLC does in the other state and why it has a car there.

Do I think you will be caught? Not necessarily. Most tax fraud is not caught. Do I think some will be caught? Yes. How will the cases play out in court? I don’t know, but am curious.

You seem pretty confident, so you should go for it. Greed is the American way for many, including, unfortunately, some of our politicians.

It doesn’t matter because you’re not required to run a business that engages in commerce in Montana to establish an LLC.

Taking advantage of tax laws created by the government is not illegal. Montana even encourages this activity and know it’s happening because they instituted an additional $800 tax for cars with an original MSRP over $150k.

Is it illegal for me to establish a business LLC in Delaware to take advantage of its tax benefits? Nope. Delaware charges no state income tax or sales tax for LLCs and doesn’t require a physical location there. I guess all of those businesses are also tax cheats that should be prosecuted despite legal precedent that they can’t be.

[x622]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

You are wrong because the LLC is an entity which owns the car,. Just because that entity is in Montana doesn't change that fact and there's no direct ownership of the car by the individual that lives in another state. Let's say you work for Facebook and they give you a company car to drive around. It's in your garage, but Facebook owns the car. Does it have to be registered in your state if it's already registered in CA where Facebook is headquartered? Explain the difference between these two scenarios.

You won't win, they won't get it. You'll still be a "tax cheat" in their book because they can't grasp basic laws and how entities work.

Wait till they find out other states don't have tax like Alaska.... hoo boy will they be mad.

[Big6Kal]

Originally Posted by LH44

The next time I see Sam Altman's MT-plated Regera or MF1 drive by house, I'll chase him down and let him know your thoughts.

[BlkGS]

The Montana LLC owning the car is a moot point when the law states that the car must be registered in the state it resides in. That the Montana LLC "owns" the car is a moot point, and it can be impounded and seized for failing to comply with the laws where it resides, requiring it to be registered there. And it would be very easy for a state to prove the vehicle resided in the state for that period of time. Hell, most new cars the automakers are pulling that information and would yield it in a second to a subpoena.

It is tax fraud because the owner is willingly not complying with state laws and pretending that the LLC protects them. The LLC is breaking the law and the LLC is owned by a person who is breaking the law. This would be like arguing that you can't be charged for running a Ponzi scheme, if you run it through an LLC.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

It doesn’t matter because you’re not required to run a business that engages in commerce in Montana to establish an LLC.

Taking advantage of tax laws created by the government is not illegal. Montana even encourages this activity and know it’s happening because they instituted an additional $800 tax for cars with an original MSRP over $150k.

Is it illegal for me to establish a business LLC in Delaware to take advantage of its tax benefits? Nope. Delaware charges no state income tax or sales tax for LLCs and doesn’t require a physical location there. I guess all of those businesses are also tax cheats that should be prosecuted despite legal precedent that they can’t be.

You could have an LLC in every state in the country if you want. But the question is whether the Montana LLC for the sole purpose of registering a vehicle there that is garaged in another state constitutes evasion of taxes in the state in which you reside and garage the car. We will see how the court cases play out. I assume the states or localities that are going after the Montana LLC owners have some basis for doing so, but they probably should have asked you for legal advice first.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The Montana LLC owning the car is a moot point when the law states that the car must be registered in the state it resides in. That the Montana LLC "owns" the car is a moot point, and it can be impounded and seized for failing to comply with the laws where it resides, requiring it to be registered there. And it would be very easy for a state to prove the vehicle resided in the state for that period of time. Hell, most new cars the automakers are pulling that information and would yield it in a second to a subpoena.

It is tax fraud because the owner is willingly not complying with state laws and pretending that the LLC protects them. The LLC is breaking the law and the LLC is owned by a person who is breaking the law. This would be like arguing that you can't be charged for running a Ponzi scheme, if you run it through an LLC.

How will the state prove where the car is garaged and for what period of time? These are easy arguments for any lawyer to make if it actually went to court.

“The automakers are pulling that information”

From where? How would an auto maker have any idea where a car is garaged?

If you drive a company car year round, is it registered in your name or the company’s name? The company ain’t going to give you the title to register it in your own name because that would mean you now own the car.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

You could have an LLC in every state in the country if you want. But the question is whether the Montana LLC for the sole purpose of registering a vehicle there that is garaged in another state constitutes evasion of taxes in the state in which you reside and garage the car. We will see how the court cases play out. I assume the states or localities that are going after the Montana LLC owners have some basis for doing so, but they probably should have asked you for legal advice first.

Not true. Only some states allow LLC establishment without a physical business address. How will it be proven in court that the LLC exists for the sole purpose of registering a car? It would be easy to argue that you are planning to establish a future business in Montana and using the LLC temporarily.

Just because you get sued doesn’t mean you’re in the wrong or that there’s any established legal basis for the lawsuit. That’s why we have a legal system, which constantly sets new precedents as laws and interpretations of them change all the time. Besides, all crime is now legal in the US so who cares.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

How will the state prove where the car is garaged and for what period of time? These are easy arguments for any lawyer to make if it actually went to court.

“The automakers are pulling that information”

From where? How would an auto maker have any idea where a car is garaged?

If you drive a company car year round, is it registered in your name or the company’s name? The company ain’t going to give you the title to register it in your own name because that would mean you now own the car.

Most automakers are collecting GPS data and other data consistently. Most of them aren't even storing it just locally, they're storing it in the cloud and the car is talking to them. That's probably the easiest way, subpoenanthat location data from them. Or mileage, or both.

Outside of that? There's cameras everywhere. They can pretty easily stablish that the car sat in your garage, maybe they subpoena your HOA for video from the front gate. Maybe they just check the state line cameras to see if the car ever leaves the state.

Or maybe they just say "the LLC is owned by Mr. Dick Trickle who doesn't own property that he could have taken it to in any other state. Here is proof that the vehicle is used in our state and it has nowhere else to go, thus it's residing in the state".

Assuming it goes to a jury trial, it's not going to be hard to get a conviction out of a jury on a rich guy with an expensive car he's not paying taxes on because he's cheating.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

Not true. Only some states allow LLC establishment without a physical business address. How will it be proven in court that the LLC exists for the sole purpose of registering a car? It would be easy to argue that you are planning to establish a future business in Montana and using the LLC temporarily.

Just because you get sued doesn’t mean you’re in the wrong or that there’s any established legal basis for the lawsuit. That’s why we have a legal system, which constantly sets new precedents as laws and interpretations of them change all the time. Besides, all crime is now legal in the US so who cares.

I am not sure where or how long you have practiced law. All states allow foreign LLCs, which do business in other states but don’t have physical locations on those other states. Lots of LLCs use mail boxes as their address.

You are right that in both civil and criminal cases usually one side wins and one side loses. It is great that you are confident you will be on the winning side. Go do your thing and represent yourself.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

How will the state prove where the car is garaged and for what period of time? These are easy arguments for any lawyer to make if it actually went to court.

“The automakers are pulling that information”

From where? How would an auto maker have any idea where a car is garaged?

If you drive a company car year round, is it registered in your name or the company’s name? The company ain’t going to give you the title to register it in your own name because that would mean you now own the car.

What Montana allows has nothing to do with any of this. If your state has registration and tax laws and regulations regarding the time the car spends at the residence in the state you live, well then, you're evading taxes. States and municipalities have clued into this and are realizing the large sums of money they are losing at a time when most of these entities are in need of money. The states are changing/revising their laws to account for this, some faster than others. States aren't going to walk away from millions each year lost in tax revenue. Yeah, there is some cost for them up front, but in the end, it will be worth it for them.

As for, "how would they find out", well first they'll do some very easy public and online database snooping and then they'll simply ask you. Better not lie because usually when the ask, they already have their case built.

[LH44]

Looks like many of you are passionate about this topic, but it doesn't seem like anyone is taking action.

It's time to take to the streets. Create a pamphlet and go door-to-door. Let your voices be heard. Write your local representatives. Organize a community town-hall. Be an agent of change.

Let it be known that every time some rich asshole registers an expensive car in Montana, a kid goes hungry. It's bad enough they had to exploit the poor to make the money needed to buy the expensive car in the first place.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Tell us what business the Montana LLC does in the other state and why it has a car there.

Do I think you will be caught? Not necessarily. Most tax fraud is not caught. Do I think some will be caught? Yes. How will the cases play out in court? I don’t know, but am curious.

You seem pretty confident, so you should go for it. Greed is the American way for many, including, unfortunately, some of our politicians.

Some?!?!? I want whatever your smoking/drinking/Sniffing. Share big dog

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by LH44

Let it be known that every time some rich asshole registers an expensive car in Montana, a kid goes hungry. It's bad enough they had to exploit the poor to make the money needed to buy the expensive car in the first place.

No stake in this. My cars are all registered in my home state. Best not to cheat, you just end up losing later.

But the kids are already going hungry, and the poor are already dying of their illnesses injuries and associated comorbidities without a properly functioning healthcare system all while our once great American infrastructure crumbles.

More money to the government isn't fixing anything. Not sure this is something to get twisted up about. They're already wasting what you give them fairly.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

More money to the government isn't fixing anything. Not sure this is something to get twisted up about. They're already wasting what you give them fairly.

Truth.

R.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by LH44

Looks like many of you are passionate about this topic, but it doesn't seem like anyone is taking action.

It's time to take to the streets. Create a pamphlet and go door-to-door. Let your voices be heard. Write your local representatives. Organize a community town-hall. Be an agent of change.

Let it be known that every time some rich asshole registers an expensive car in Montana, a kid goes hungry. It's bad enough they had to exploit the poor to make the money needed to buy the expensive car in the first place.

The real problem is alcohol is too cheap.

[oem.plus_440gc]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

You are wrong because the LLC is an entity which owns the car,. Just because that entity is in Montana doesn't change that fact and there's no direct ownership of the car by the individual that lives in another state. Let's say you work for Facebook and they give you a company car to drive around. It's in your garage, but Facebook owns the car. Does it have to be registered in your state if it's already registered in CA where Facebook is headquartered? Explain the difference between these two scenarios.

Just as a heads up, I work for a major fleet leasing business, and we register our customer's cars in the state in which they are used, not the state in which the business is registered...

For example, a business like Frito Lay (owns Coca-Cola, etc.), who operates in all 50 states, has vehicles registered in all 50 individual states, not where they as a business are incorporated/registered/headquartered.

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by oem.plus_440gc

Just as a heads up, I work for a major fleet leasing business, and we register our customer's cars in the state in which they are used, not the state in which the business is registered...

For example, a business like Frito Lay (owns Coca-Cola, etc.), who operates in all 50 states, has vehicles registered in all 50 individual states, not where they as a business are incorporated/registered/headquartered.

I was going to say similar, but on the other side in that I had a company car at my last company. 80,000+ employees globally, and those that got cars were all registered in the state/country/whatever the driver resided. One car I had originally registered in Florida, but I had to get a new plate/registration when I moved back to Georgia and brought that car with me. Registered in my name with affiliation to the company listed.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

No stake in this. My cars are all registered in my home state. Best not to cheat, you just end up losing later.

But the kids are already going hungry, and the poor are already dying of their illnesses injuries and associated comorbidities without a properly functioning healthcare system all while our once great American infrastructure crumbles.

More money to the government isn't fixing anything. Not sure this is something to get twisted up about. They're already wasting what you give them fairly.

That's not an excuse to allow people to cheat the system and commit fraud when everyone else is playing by the rules. Your argument is like saying it's OK to steal a car if it's been sitting on the lot and not selling.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by oem.plus_440gc

Just as a heads up, I work for a major fleet leasing business, and we register our customer's cars in the state in which they are used, not the state in which the business is registered...

For example, a business like Frito Lay (owns Coca-Cola, etc.), who operates in all 50 states, has vehicles registered in all 50 individual states, not where they as a business are incorporated/registered/headquartered.

Yep. I have two friends with company cars with Ingersoll Rand and Siemens. The cars are registered to their home address.