[Alfisti]

I have no horse in this race and find the US legal system needlessly complex as it's 50 little countries that pretend to be one country.

My question is, are there states that have laws that outline either a) the residence of the owner having to match the state the car is registered in or b) the use of the vehicle (as in the state it is used in) being over a certain percentage before it is allowed to be registered out of state and c) the physical location the vehicle is stored impacting the allowance to register in another state?

[Humdizzle]

good points brought up here.

but the issue is still enforcement. this sort of legal stuff is above most street cops. they didn't get a law degree.

The last thing they want to do is pull over someone for the wrong reason. White cop sees a minority driving a sports car with montana plates. he pulls them over. all the LLC paperwork is fine, but he still says "i dont believe you, im reporting this to the department of revenue because i think you're abusing the system". Turns out the guy lives in MT and was just visiting.

now the precinct will need to get ready for a some backlash from a wealthy lawyered up individual. "he looked like he was cheating the system" is not gonna fly.

this is why california and other states have to setup snitch websites to try and catch people. i see quite a few well known youtubers with MT or SD plates there. Even the million dollar singer 911 on the smoking tire channel. The Mclaren F1 that chris harris recently drove. But nobody is prosecuting.

[LH44]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

good points brought up here.

but the issue is still enforcement. this sort of legal stuff is above most street cops. they didn't get a law degree.

The last thing they want to do is pull over someone for the wrong reason. White cop sees a minority driving a sports car with montana plates. he pulls them over. all the LLC paperwork is fine, but he still says "i dont believe you, im reporting this to the department of revenue because i think you're abusing the system". Turns out the guy lives in MT and was just visiting.

now the precinct will need to get ready for a some backlash from a wealthy lawyered up individual. "he looked like he was cheating the system" is not gonna fly.

this is why california and other states have to setup snitch websites to try and catch people. i see quite a few well known youtubers with MT or SD plates there. Even the million dollar singer 911 on the smoking tire channel. The Mclaren F1 that chris harris recently drove. But nobody is prosecuting.

They have bigger fish to fry.

I don't put license plates on any of my cars simply because I don't like the way they look. I've still never been pulled over.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

That's not an excuse to allow people to cheat the system and commit fraud when everyone else is playing by the rules. Your argument is like saying it's OK to steal a car if it's been sitting on the lot and not selling.

No. You're quoting me out of context. Poster above says if you cheat the system a child goes hungry. Let's keep that clear.

Point is the child is already hungry because the system is completely buggered. The child will remain hungry regardless of how much back taxes are collected.

Fix the system then prosecute the assholes. Everything costs money and time. I'm tired of officials wasting both.

I'm actually suspicious that this is a distraction from the avalanche of program shutdowns which are actually fuelling the above. Off topic for this thread though.

Let the discussion resume about private citizen/LLC assholes cheating the government assholes.

Cheers.

[pbonsalb]

If this has not yet been posted, it is a good introductory article discussing the issues from a reputable source — a specialty car insurance company.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market...ole-explained/

In my opinion, as someone who practiced law for 30 years, mostly in a state attorney general’s office, this is tax fraud. It is totally legal to have a Montana LLC and register your car under it if you use that car for the purposes of the LLC and confirm to all of your state’s laws. But where the Montana LLC is really a sham because it has no other business than registering your car and you don’t live in Montana or garage your car there, you are violating laws in many if not most states.

The cases will play out in court over time and it may be that in some states the statutory language was not written precisely enough to capture this method of evading taxes. I sued some some national corporations and lost in a tax case years ago. Lawyers can debate the meaning of the language and whether it covers the issue at hand, and a judge decides (typically in cases of statutory interpretation the question is a legal one not dependent on the credibility of witnesses so a jury is not necessary) the matter and one side wins and one loses.

Without looking at 49 state statutes and case law on in the matter, I can’t say which states will be problems for those using Montana LLCs to avoid taxes and even if I did give an opinion, it might be wrong. I won most of the hundreds of cases I filed but lost a big tax case. Some states won’t bother pursuing these case. Some will and will lose. I might be worried if I had my car under a Montana LLC, but it may be that most of the people doing this have plenty of money and are just greedy.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by LH44

Let it be known that every time some rich asshole registers an expensive car in Montana, a kid goes hungry. It's bad enough they had to exploit the poor to make the money needed to buy the expensive car in the first place.

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

No. You're quoting me out of context. Poster above says if you cheat the system a child goes hungry. Let's keep that clear.

Point is the child is already hungry because the system is completely buggered. The child will remain hungry regardless of how much back taxes are collected.

Fix the system then prosecute the assholes. Everything costs money and time. I'm tired of officials wasting both.

I'm actually suspicious that this is a distraction from the avalanche of program shutdowns which are actually fuelling the above. Off topic for this thread though.

Let the discussion resume about private citizen/LLC assholes cheating the government assholes.

Cheers.

I was going with it is the child's parents who are responsible for feeding their child. The taxpayer's responsibility is to smartly vote for and fund a government that creates and sustains an economic system, which allows food to be produced at affordable consumer prices.

As a taxpayer, I have as much disdain for the rich asshole who buys a very expensive car and employs ways to avoid paying the proper and legal fees required for it as much as I do for the poor asshole who haphazardly fornicates and creates offspring he can't afford and expects his fellow citizens to feed and care for his bastard child.

But that's just me.

[ShocknAwe]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I was going with it is the child's parents who are responsible for feeding their child. The the taxpayers responsibility is to smartly vote for and fund a government that creates and sustains an economic system, which allows food to be produced at affordable consumer prices.

As a taxpayer, I have as much disdain for the rich asshole who buys a very expensive car and employs ways to avoid paying the proper and leagal fees required for it as much as I do for the poor asshole who haphazardly fornicates and creates offspring he can't afford and expects his fellow citizens to feed and care for his bastard child.

But that's just me.

Just a nonsense relationship to begin with TBH. I agree with the above.

[x622]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

If this has not yet been posted, it is a good introductory article discussing the issues from a reputable source — a specialty car insurance company.

https://www.hagerty.com/media/market...ole-explained/

In my opinion, as someone who practiced law for 30 years, mostly in a state attorney general’s office, this is tax fraud. It is totally legal to have a Montana LLC and register your car under it if you use that car for the purposes of the LLC and confirm to all of your state’s laws. But where the Montana LLC is really a sham because it has no other business than registering your car and you don’t live in Montana or garage your car there, you are violating laws in many if not most states.

The cases will play out in court over time and it may be that in some states the statutory language was not written precisely enough to capture this method of evading taxes. I sued some some national corporations and lost in a tax case years ago. Lawyers can debate the meaning of the language and whether it covers the issue at hand, and a judge decides (typically in cases of statutory interpretation the question is a legal one not dependent on the credibility of witnesses so a jury is not necessary) the matter and one side wins and one loses.

Without looking at 49 state statutes and case law on in the matter, I can’t say which states will be problems for those using Montana LLCs to avoid taxes and even if I did give an opinion, it might be wrong. I won most of the hundreds of cases I filed but lost a big tax case. Some states won’t bother pursuing these case. Some will and will lose. I might be worried if I had my car under a Montana LLC, but it may be that most of the people doing this have plenty of money and are just greedy.

What if I ship my car to various states just to drive it there? What if I have houses in multiple locations, and some months I'm in say Malibu or Newport, and then a month later I'm in Miami, then a bit later I ship my car to the PNW and enjoy the leaves turning? Do I have to register my car in each of those states? Which house is my primary residence?


Actually not trying to be contrarian here, just this is how some of my friends are. I don't get my dick hard from having houses in every hot spot in one country and prefer to just go out of country. Even thinking about that, one of my friends literally ships his cars overseas...

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by x622

What if I ship my car to various states just to drive it there? What if I have houses in multiple locations, and some months I'm in say Malibu or Newport, and then a month later I'm in Miami, then a bit later I ship my car to the PNW and enjoy the leaves turning? Do I have to register my car in each of those states? Which house is my primary residence?


Actually not trying to be contrarian here, just this is how some of my friends are. I don't get my dick hard from having houses in every hot spot in one country and prefer to just go out of country. Even thinking about that, one of my friends literally ships his cars overseas...

In the US a tax paying citizen needs to declare a primary residence for Federal tax purposes, which would dictate what state one would register his cars and pay the requisite taxes and fees and it also dictates his matching address on his license and registration documents. If one is of the wealth level you discuss, they should be wealthy enough to afford the taxes on the expensive cars they buy. I think that is all we are expecting is such individuals pay the required taxes and fees regardless of the value of the automobiles they purchase, just as everyone is required to do. Not an unreasonable ask, IMO.

If Montana allows a person to create a shell LLC to register his cars to avoid sales tax, then he should live in Montana as his primary residence. Does Montana allow its residents to avoid state sales tax under an LLC?

[zx10guy]

Interesting discussion. This topic has come up with MD residents because of the tax increases with registering a vehicle in MD (registration fees have more than doubled what they once were) along with the jump in emissions testing fees. MD also changed the qualification terms for historic plates where the registration fees are cheaper and the cars are exempt from emissions testing. This is causing many to look into registering their cars out state such as VA.

Me personally, I looked into registering one of my motorcycles in the state where I own a vacation home. This was done when I was purchasing this motorcycle from a dealership. The dealership was on board with assisting with the process. The registration fees were much cheaper than my home state along with the sales tax. From what I was gathering, I was legally able to do so. In the end, I opted not to do so. While the registration fees were significantly cheaper, the hassle to get the bike tagged there wasn't worth it as I had to take the bike to get inspected at that state along with for whatever reason the much higher insurance premiums I would have to pay.

[G MONEY]

People pay enough tax. If there is a loophole, we’ll god damn use it. Not sure why anyone is bitching. You can do it also. If you don’t want to, ok. Pay away. It’s crazy to me that a car gets taxed every fucking time it gets sold!?!? Like what the fuck. It was taxed on the first sale. That’s enough. But no no no. If it gets sold 10 more times, 10 more poor bastards are paying it again. Lame AF

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

People pay enough tax. If there is a loophole, we’ll god damn use it. Not sure why anyone is bitching. You can do it also. If you don’t want to, ok. Pay away. It’s crazy to me that a car gets taxed every fucking time it gets sold!?!? Like what the fuck. It was taxed on the first sale. That’s enough. But no no no. If it gets sold 10 more times, 10 more poor bastards are paying it again. Lame AF

I don't think I swing in any particular direction on the Montana deal. I get both sides. But THIS is something I have never understood. A $100k vehicle sells and is taxed. Okay, I get it. But the original owner sells it in a private sale to another individual for $75k. The new owner now needs to pay the same sales tax against $75k. Assuming a 7% sales tax (like here), they have now collected 12%+ worth of sales taxes against a $100k vehicle.

I buy a new Playstation. I pay my sales tax. I'm done playing video games and sell it on Craigslist - no one is collecting sales tax for that transaction. I'm not advocating to tax these other private sales, just proving a point...

Anyway, back to the Montana bickering...

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

I don't think I swing in any particular direction on the Montana deal. I get both sides. But THIS is something I have never understood. A $100k vehicle sells and is taxed. Okay, I get it. But the original owner sells it in a private sale to another individual for $75k. The new owner now needs to pay the same sales tax against $75k. Assuming a 7% sales tax (like here), they have now collected 12%+ worth of sales taxes against a $100k vehicle.

I buy a new Playstation. I pay my sales tax. I'm done playing video games and sell it on Craigslist - no one is collecting sales tax for that transaction. I'm not advocating to tax these other private sales, just proving a point...

Anyway, back to the Montana bickering...

Exactly. It’s fucking criminal. Funny how you don’t see the states complaining about that shit. So yeah, find a loop hole and drive a semi through it

[Vindicator3]

Most of this is rehash from the other thread, but a few key points -

1) Whether this is legal, likely to be enforced, etc. is a question of the law of the state in which you live and drive the vehicle. Unless you live and drive in Montana, Montana law has nothing to do with whether you are committing tax fraud and nothing to do with whether you are likely to be assessed or prosecuted. It's great that Montana law lets you set up the LLC, but that's about as far as that goes.

2) Most people use the word "loophole" to describe something legal, as contrasted with tax fraud. On this issue, an example of a "loophole" is the CA law that says you don't have to pay sales tax on a car you bought more than a year (taking delivery in another state) before you first brought it into CA. This is why there are warehouses in MT full of supercars sitting out their year, as discussed in the article. Unless/until CA changes this law, CA drivers can do this and legally avoid CA sales tax, if they are willing to jump through the hoops.

3) Other than any loopholes similar to 2) above, this is tax fraud and a crime, not a loophole. Just getting a MT plate to avoid taxes and other fees in your home state is not legal simply because an LLC is involved or simply because MT lets you do it.

4) The LA case is of marginal use. First, it only applies in LA. Second, it does not stand for the proposition that no taxes are owed. It holds simply that the taxes were owed by the LLC and not by the individual. Thus, the state could (and presumably will next time) have sued the LLC and obtained a judgment against the LLC for the back taxes plus interest and penalties. Depending on your state's law, that could allow the state to put a lien on the car that would have to be paid when the car is sold, or even to foreclose on the car to pay the lien. Third, it only applies in LA and only to the law as it existed at the time. The article mentions a state (Iowa? I didn't go back and re-read) that specifically changed their law to make these tax obligations enforceable against the individual despite the LLC ownership. So in your state, they may be able to go after you directly despite what the LA case said about LA law. And, again, MT law has nothing to do with the issues of whether taxes are owed and if so whether they can be collected from the individual or only from the LLC.

Nobody likes paying taxes, but it pays to be wary of people selling tax dodges on websites - mostly modern-day snake oil salesmen.

[M-technik-3]

Originally Posted by Mech Spec

Around here if cops notice you out of state parked in the area for more than 2 weeks they will give you ticket that your car must be registered in ma within 30 days or you will be impounded.

There are exceptions to those rules, Military AD, Leased corporate cars.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

I don't think I swing in any particular direction on the Montana deal. I get both sides. But THIS is something I have never understood. A $100k vehicle sells and is taxed. Okay, I get it. But the original owner sells it in a private sale to another individual for $75k. The new owner now needs to pay the same sales tax against $75k. Assuming a 7% sales tax (like here), they have now collected 12%+ worth of sales taxes against a $100k vehicle.

I buy a new Playstation. I pay my sales tax. I'm done playing video games and sell it on Craigslist - no one is collecting sales tax for that transaction. I'm not advocating to tax these other private sales, just proving a point...

Anyway, back to the Montana bickering...

Technically speaking, you are supposed to collect sales tax on it and give it to the government. But because it's a paltry sum that's done under the table, it's not worth the effort. If you made a business of buying and selling PlayStations on the other hand, the government would eventually figure out you're screwing them out of sales tax and come after you. Hence why GameStop charges sales tax on used games and PlayStations.

[spazzyfry123]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Technically speaking, you are supposed to collect sales tax on it and give it to the government. But because it's a paltry sum that's done under the table, it's not worth the effort. If you made a business of buying and selling PlayStations on the other hand, the government would eventually figure out you're screwing them out of sales tax and come after you. Hence why GameStop charges sales tax on used games and PlayStations.

I guess my point is, they collected their tax upon the initial sale. Why should more sales tax be collected on the same item each time is changes ownership?

Anyway, not to derail the discussion's topic.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

I guess my point is, they collected their tax upon the initial sale. Why should more sales tax be collected on the same item each time is changes ownership?

Anyway, not to derail the discussion's topic.

It funds the DMV to keep track of your car.

[G MONEY]

Maybe the morons will cut the DMV funds also. Fire 80% of the workers. That would be sweet

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by spazzyfry123

I guess my point is, they collected their tax upon the initial sale. Why should more sales tax be collected on the same item each time is changes ownership?

Anyway, not to derail the discussion's topic.

Because that's how a sales tax works? And because our country is hopelessly addicted to debt spending, and so if everything was only taxed once we',d be even more financially screwed? Lol.

I get your point, but why is Amy of the tax code the way it is? The answer is of course, because the really rich people want it that way so they can keep more of their money, but none of it makes any damn sense.

[Humdizzle]

i view it like the F1 drivers who live in Monaco. Why? because they can drastically reduce income tax to zero by living there. and still own a home in the UK or wherever they choose to spend most of their time.

nobody bats an eye at this. just like how nobody cares about amazon, google, big pharma, hiring teams of lawyers to evade taxes.

but when its a ferrari owner 2 blocks down the road thats doing it... it hits people different. especially if their own car isn't expensive enough to make a MT LLC worth it. (you often have to have the entire vehicle paid off to register it there as most banks will not finance something so legally tangled).

[dumptruck]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

just like how nobody cares about amazon, google, big pharma, hiring teams of lawyers to evade taxes.

You are projecting again.