[Needsdecaf]

All:

The TL DR - I'm looking for ways to help combat DOMS and aid muscle recovery after workouts. I'm finding creatine monohydrate to be the only thing that has helped somewhat, but not sure if should be taking daily, or only after workouts.

The longer version:

So I've always been pretty fit and pretty active. I hit the 6'2" mark in high school and haven't weighed under 200 since 8th grade. Always had very strong leg muscles and carried a lot of weight there. To give you an idea of my build, peak of fitness was when I was 24, running 30 miles a week, and lifting 4-5 times. I was 210 lbs and had about 10% body fat, IIRC.

Fast forward two and a half decades and in 2021 my wife and I looked at pictures of ourselves from New Years and decided enough was enough. I clocked in at 278 and we both started losing weight by extensively modifying our food consumption. I've spoken about Noom before, I won't elaborate, but we both re-learned how to eat better for good. One year later and I was down to 212.5, a few pants sizes, much better energy, sleep, numbers, etc.

We did most of that through better eating and increasing overall activity, but did not pursue resistance training. More walking, much more. Biking and some running as well. But very little weights.

After losing weight, I wanted to start to rebuild my strength and muscle mass but DOMS has really hurt me. At first I thought it was just simply being out of shape but even after I got into a regular routine of 3-4 workouts a week and saw my strength return, and DOMS diminish naturally, it still continues to really plague me. I've not kept up with the weights and get into the cycle if I don't work out for a few weeks, it becomes excruciating to do anything to get back into it. Especially legs. But even from anything strenuous. I played golf the other day for the first time in 6 months and 48 hours later my forearms are still aching.

I've found that taking creatine has helped. But I'm just taking it after workouts. Anything that the over-50 crowd is doing to help this? Anything I need to get tested for? At my last physical a year ago, I mentioned this to my doctor and he kind of brushed it off saying "your numbers look good, you're just getting older" which I kind of understand but also....I listen to my body. I don't think it should be THIS bad. I know aging is inevitable but I see plenty of 50 and 60 year olds without these issues and having been relatively strong and healthy (even when super over weight I didn't have AWFUL numbers or significant health issues). So I refuse to go gently! Right now I'm working on getting really in shape. Weight has come back up a bit to 222 lbs, not terrible considering I stopped logging food in April 2022. Body fat currently at 17.8% and want to get that down into the teens.

Thanks guys.

[chassis]

Facts:
- you are not 24
- you are older now, and getting older
- you talked alot about using weights and workouts and creatine
- you talked a little bit about eating
- you are overweight
- I am in the over-50 crowd
- I am not overweight
- I do not take supplements unless you consider Vitamin D a supplement
- I place first priority on diet: quantity is the most important part of diet

Suggestions:
- achieve and maintain 180-190 lb weight by caloric deficit, followed by caloric balance
- emphasize cardio activities (swimming, cycling, running)
- forget supplements

The suggestions are easy. The hardest part is changing one's thinking about them.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by chassis

- I place first priority on diet: quantity is the most important part of diet

Suggestions:
- achieve and maintain 180-190 lb weight by caloric deficit, followed by caloric balance
- emphasize cardio activities (swimming, cycling, running)
.

I didn't talk much about diet because I have that under control. I did address it here briefly, but if you read, you'll note that I noted I have achieved a caloric balance in that I've maintained the same weight for basically 3 and a half years. I am currently back to logging food and I am in a caloric deficit (200-300 calories / day) and have been losing weight slowly but steadily, as is good practice. I weigh myself daily and see fluctuations in weight from salt, other diet, stress and exercise. The majority of my calories come from low calorie density foods like fruits and veggies, low fat proteins like chicken, fish, eggs and yogurt and whole grain breads. I am monitoring both my macros AND the caloric density of my foods.

Your suggestion that I'm overweight and that I should get down to 180-190 lbs runs counter to the fact that I told you that the last time I've been under 200 lbs is in 8th grade, and that at the peak of my fitness, with single digit body fat, I weighed 210. For you to suggest I lose 20-30 lbs on top of that indicates you aren't really paying much attention. If I weighted 180, I would either be hospitalized or having people ask if I needed to be. I have stopped paying attention to my BMI as it is a poor indicator of my actual health. In fact, according to my In Body scale (results of which I have correlated with more precise body composition testing) my body type is "Above Average D-Type: is characterized by Weight and Skeletal mass above the healthy range and Body Fat Mass above or within this range, with a high ratio of muscle to fat. This body type is typically very strong and robust and is commonly observed in athletes. Based on BMI, this body type is commonly misclassified as obese. However, this is not the case as the 'excess' weight is primarily due to muscle mass; therefore additional weight adjustment is not necessary'.

Also, per your cardio suggestions, I walk every day and complete somewhere between 15 and 30 miles of quite rigorous MTB riding per week, with my heart in zones 3-5. My resting heartrate is around 52 and my Zone 5 is in the 150's. So also got that covered.

Was specifically asking about resistance training and how to improve efficiency.

Facts:

Increasing muscle mass leads to greater metabolic activity, therefore greater metabolic health.
Increasing overall strength is a good indicator of long term health, especially contributing to stability and balance.
Any doctor, nutritionist, or fitness professional worth their salt will tell you that increasing muscle mass is beneficial to your health overall.

I'm not looking to get jacked or huge. But I do want functional strength in my core to go on longer bike rides, in my legs to go on longer walks and runs, and in my shoulders back and arms to play golf better.

[unluky]

Originally Posted by chassis

Facts:
- you are not 24
- you are older now, and getting older
- you talked alot about using weights and workouts and creatine
- you talked a little bit about eating
- you are overweight
- I am in the over-50 crowd
- I am not overweight
- I do not take supplements unless you consider Vitamin D a supplement
- I place first priority on diet: quantity is the most important part of diet

Suggestions:
- achieve and maintain 180-190 lb weight by caloric deficit, followed by caloric balance
- emphasize cardio activities (swimming, cycling, running)
- forget supplements

The suggestions are easy. The hardest part is changing one's thinking about them.

This is basically the EXACT wake up call I had to give myself when I was about 42-43. I am 5' 10" and was in the 210-220 range most of the year. I hit a high of 236 after a trip and something just "snapped" in me. I dropped about 50 pound over the next year and never felt better in my life. I no longer woke up with aches, I slept WAY better, I no longer sweat sitting in my air conditions office - in fact I rarely sweat anymore. I sit a hard limit of 180 and if I cross that - NO MORE eating out or anything till I am back under. Going mostly carbless was the key for me - or super low carb anyway.

I am 55 now and I got into a "focus on whole foods" deal this year and trimmed down further to 162-166 area and have been holding that all summer easily with the new diet. I feel like I am eating a TON, but my weight holds. I just eat when my body tells me too.

It's not fun, but if you bear down HARD the first few weeks - it makes it so much easier. Once you get all that damn insulin, bloating, and inflammation out of your body you feel SO much better it makes you wanna keep going and your tastebuds change and things like fruits taste like candy. I'd rather have a super shitty few weeks and get it over with instead of 1/2 assing it for 6 months.

As you said - it has NOTHING to do with your workouts - it's all in the diet. GAINS are made in the gym, LOSES are made in the kitchen. Once you get the weight off you can hit the weights harder if you want, but getting the weight off is going to give you by far the best ROI on your efforts right now.

I was there - I feel you man. Having a partner to do it with helps a lot - be rude and call each other on your shit - it's worth it big time.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by unluky

This is basically the EXACT wake up call I had to give myself when I was about 42-43. I am 5' 10" and was in the 210-220 range most of the year. I hit a high of 236 after a trip and something just "snapped" in me. I dropped about 50 pound over the next year and never felt better in my life. I no longer woke up with aches, I slept WAY better, I no longer sweat sitting in my air conditions office - in fact I rarely sweat anymore. I sit a hard limit of 180 and if I cross that - NO MORE eating out or anything till I am back under. Going mostly carbless was the key for me - or super low carb anyway.

I am 55 now and I got into a "focus on whole foods" deal this year and trimmed down further to 162-166 area and have been holding that all summer easily with the new diet. I feel like I am eating a TON, but my weight holds. I just eat when my body tells me too.

It's not fun, but if you bear down HARD the first few weeks - it makes it so much easier. Once you get all that damn insulin, bloating, and inflammation out of your body you feel SO much better it makes you wanna keep going and your tastebuds change and things like fruits taste like candy. I'd rather have a super shitty few weeks and get it over with instead of 1/2 assing it for 6 months.

As you said - it has NOTHING to do with your workouts - it's all in the diet. GAINS are made in the gym, LOSES are made in the kitchen. Once you get the weight off you can hit the weights harder if you want, but getting the weight off is going to give you by far the best ROI on your efforts right now.

I was there - I feel you man. Having a partner to do it with helps a lot - be rude and call each other on your shit - it's worth it big time.

I agree with everything you said above. And as I noted...I did all of the above. I lost over 60 lbs with just food adjustments making 90% of the difference. I'm over that now, in that it has become a permanent lifestyle change. Hence the reason I've kept my weight relatively steady (only a 5% increase in 40 months) despite not logging any food during that time.

having partner accountability definitely helps and my wife is alongside me. She's had outside health issues which have waylaid her in myriad ways, and part of my going back to logging food is to get her to do so as well.

I should also say that I just ran a CGM for the last two months and the results were interesting. I'm nowhere near pre-diabetic (I had worried as my fasting overnight insulin is a little high but turns out that's just my natural set point and my body's reaction to food is pretty robust) but that did spur me to try to walk after every single meal, even at work. That kept the already under control spikes after meals to almost zero if I could do that.

In my case, having DONE all those steps above, I'm not focused more on increasing muscle mass and trying to avoid the DOMS which pushes me away from 3-4 resistance workouts per week.

[Mason Hatcher]

There is a lot of information on the web about muscle soreness and how to mitigate it. But if you are reaching Hypertrophy, you’re going to have some soreness. It should not be debilitating.

I’m 64, and doing a two leg day split per week, a push and pull day. I do two to three HIIT/hybrid workouts per week, run outdoors and cycle. I’m competing in my first Hyrox in November. I get sore.

As far as creatine, take it daily.

[chassis]

Forget weights and machines aka resistance.

Walk
Run
Swim
Bike
Hike/backpack
Pushups
Situps/crunches
Chin/pullups

Eat fruit, veggies/legumes, eggs, dairy, grains (including bread) and a limited quantity of meat.

Be in the healthy range for BMI. It’s real. It matters.

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by chassis

Forget weights and machines aka resistance.

Walk
Run
Swim
Bike
Hike/backpack
Pushups
Situps/crunches
Chin/pullups

Eat fruit, veggies/legumes, eggs, dairy, grains (including bread) and a limited quantity of meat.

Be in the healthy range for BMI. It’s real. It matters.

While one can get in fairly good shape with bodyweight exercises, you left out lower body strength training. Lower Body strength training is critical for healthy running form and efficiency, and to stay injury free.

BMI is pretty much meaningless for individuals. Body fat percentage is a much better metric. Bread and other processed foods are not good for you. High protein is better.

[Electron mike]

I'm 49, lifetime natural, have been training for 38 years and was a certified personal trainer for 10 years. In my experience, if you train HARD with progressive overload and are natural you will have significant muscle soreness.

I can reduce the duration and intensity of my soreness by maintaining proper hydration, proper sleep, stretching, and by moving daily. But if I train hard I am sore for 2-3 days post workout. Many trainers on steroids/peptides/etc will recommend training body parts multiple times per week which does not work for me as a natural. I only train each body part directly once per week, hard.

No way around it, train hard and you will get sore. Learn to enjoy it like the rest of us.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by Electron mike

No way around it, train hard and you will get sore. Learn to enjoy it like the rest of us.

That's the problem, it's not from training all that hard. And it is pretty debilitating and lasts like almost a whole week.

Been resistance training since 14, never any monkey business with any enhancements either. Always lifted to improve function, whether football, lacrosse, road biking, swimming, whatever. Was never about size, definition. Was doing plyometrics in the early 90's when the only people who knew about them were professional athletes and Olympians. So believe me, I am well used to being sore from training.

This is a lot worse. Not sure if it's just age and overtraining or if there is something I can do to help my body get rid of the lactic acid. The creatine does help. I am well hydrated (I track how much every day and it's at least 80 fl oz.) and do stretch and sometimes yoga.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by Mason Hatcher

While one can get in fairly good shape with bodyweight exercises, you left out lower body strength training. Lower Body strength training is critical for healthy running form and efficiency, and to stay injury free.

BMI is pretty much meaningless for individuals. Body fat percentage is a much better metric. Bread and other processed foods are not good for you. High protein is better.

On the contrary x 2. Please re-read for on the contrary #1.

Regarding on the contrary #2, have you had a DXA scan in the past 12 months? What was the result?

Regarding on the contrary #2, the photos posted are spurious red herrings. You know it.

[Mason Hatcher]

The photos clearly demonstrate that BMI is fine for general group classifications, but bullshit for individuals. Body fat is an accurate indicator. Yes, the muscle guy is an extreme example, but illustrates the failing of BMI.

No dexa for me, no idea why the question. I do in-body scans regularly to track my status, and I have a home scale that tracks fat, muscle mass, water, etc. What is that question supposed to prove?

[eleven11]

It sounds like you have a solid background and knowledge base. But just a few additional thoughts, in case you haven't looked at them closely:

• Hydration and electrolytes - basic, but really stay ahead with the water. For me, it's always the first thing after getting out of bed (12+ ounces). I'm also a fan of either salt (Redmonds) or a product like LMNT (even when not going hard with cardio).
  
• Sleep - optimize it. It's more important than anything. You can't cheat it, no matter what you think. Plenty of resources online. Consider an Oura ring or something similar to understand your sleep physiology. Apple/Garmin are decent, but not in the same league as a sleep specific tracker like Oura.
  
• No alcohol.
  
• Consider a sauna, cold exposure/plunge, or a combination (contrast therapy).
  
• Do a deep dive on your labs - your PCP might be solid, but many won't offer options to look at more granular tests. A good functional medicine physician can help, but do your homework (some are great, some veer too far from evidenced care). Independently, you can consider a subscription to something like Function Health, where you can select numerous options to assess; Function will also provide guidance on dietary changes, supplements, etc.

I hope this helps.

[mjr24]

Hmm....I'm 45 and don't really get issues with DOMS much anymore even if I take a few months off. However, I've also been lifting for the better part of 15 years now so I think body still is pretty used to my routine when I re-start....

Are you sure you aren't just over-training these muscles?

EDIT: I see you said this can last a week. That doesn't sound right....that is like basically the DOMS I had when I very first started working out hard. Definitely should not be lasting that long even after taking some little time off from lifting.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by Mason Hatcher

The photos clearly demonstrate that BMI is fine for general group classifications, but bullshit for individuals. Body fat is an accurate indicator. Yes, the muscle guy is an extreme example, but illustrates the failing of BMI.

No dexa for me, no idea why the question. I do in-body scans regularly to track my status, and I have a home scale that tracks fat, muscle mass, water, etc. What is that question supposed to prove?

The reason is that you relied on spurious photos to support a narrative. This suggests you are not familiar with body fat percentage using the gold standard measurement method. Impedance body fat measurements are near worthless. My impedance numbers are far from my DXA number and even farther from a medical professional’s examination.

Body fat % is the KPI that BMI is attempting to illustrate, using easily available measurement tools (home scale). Many people have too much body fat, which means to say they weigh too much.

Tape measurement methods to estimate body fat are more accurate than impedance. My tape measure BF% is close to my DXA number and close to a medical professional’s examination, and far from impedance results. Impedance is popular because it is an easy thing to do and gadget makers are happy to sell gadgets to unsuspecting people.

If a person measures “big” with a tape measure and has out-of-healthy BMI, the conclusion is they need to lose weight. Don’t overthink this. It’s simple.

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by chassis

The reason is that you relied on spurious photos to support a narrative. This suggests you are not familiar with body fat percentage using the gold standard measurement method. Impedance body fat measurements are near worthless. My impedance numbers are far from my DXA number and even farther from a medical professional’s examination.

Body fat % is the KPI that BMI is attempting to illustrate, using easily available measurement tools (home scale). Many people have too much body fat, which means to say they weigh too much.

Tape measurement methods to estimate body fat are more accurate than impedance. My tape measure BF% is close to my DXA number and close to a medical professional’s examination, and far from impedance results. Impedance is popular because it is an easy thing to do and gadget makers are happy to sell gadgets to unsuspecting people.

If a person measures “big” with a tape measure and has out-of-healthy BMI, the conclusion is they need to lose weight. Don’t overthink this. It’s simple.

Man, you really hate to be disagreed with. The photo simply proves that BMI is bullshit. Just like your assertion that body weight exercises are sufficient.

All I am going to say about testing methods is that people who have done dexa and other methods report a difference, but the baseline and subsequent change percentage match. So if my home scale says I am starting at 21% and dexa says 23%, I have a baseline on both.

All my post “suggests” other than what I wrote, is nothing.

I have been doing body fat testing since the 80s, we did calipers then. So rather than try to denigrate me, post some studies and facts to support your position, and stop bloviating

[Mason Hatcher]

Originally Posted by eleven11

It sounds like you have a solid background and knowledge base. But just a few additional thoughts, in case you haven't looked at them closely:

• Hydration and electrolytes - basic, but really stay ahead with the water. For me, it's always the first thing after getting out of bed (12+ ounces). I'm also a fan of either salt (Redmonds) or a product like LMNT (even when not going hard with cardio).
  
• Sleep - optimize it. It's more important than anything. You can't cheat it, no matter what you think. Plenty of resources online. Consider an Oura ring or something similar to understand your sleep physiology. Apple/Garmin are decent, but not in the same league as a sleep specific tracker like Oura.
  
• No alcohol.
  
• Consider a sauna, cold exposure/plunge, or a combination (contrast therapy).
  
• Do a deep dive on your labs - your PCP might be solid, but many won't offer options to look at more granular tests. A good functional medicine physician can help, but do your homework (some are great, some veer too far from evidenced care). Independently, you can consider a subscription to something like Function Health, where you can select numerous options to assess; Function will also provide guidance on dietary changes, supplements, etc.

I hope this helps.

This is a great post

[Chihuahua]

I would absolutely take creatine monohydrate daily, it has many health benefits other than those that are gym-related. I take 5g per day in the morning. I'll be 50 in January. I'm fit, 5'10 160-165lbs. Diet is incredibly important but you already know that. Good luck in your fitness journey.

[Mech Spec]

Except the guy in the video thumbnail with a BMI of 32 is on gear.

The contention that normal weight for any 6'2" individual, even very fit, is over 200 is BS. Maybe if you had midget legs and a massive torso and shoulders.

[Electron mike]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

That's the problem, it's not from training all that hard. And it is pretty debilitating and lasts like almost a whole week.

If you aren't training hard and are sore for a whole week, something is up. Either your fitness level is so low that moderate training causes severe muscle and CNS fatigue and inhibits recovery, or your sleep/bloodwork/hydration/diet needs attention.

What is your 2 mile run time? How many pushups can you do without stopping? How many pullups can you do? How many unweighted air squats? How many situps? What is your 100 meter run time? 400 meter? Vo2 max? A good trainer can do a fitness assessment and compare your results with expected age based mins/maxs.

This + bloodwork should lead you to next steps.

[Needsdecaf]

Originally Posted by eleven11

It sounds like you have a solid background and knowledge base. But just a few additional thoughts, in case you haven't looked at them closely:


Hydration and electrolytes - basic, but really stay ahead with the water. For me, it's always the first thing after getting out of bed (12+ ounces). I'm also a fan of either salt (Redmonds) or a product like LMNT (even when not going hard with cardio).

Sleep - optimize it. It's more important than anything. You can't cheat it, no matter what you think. Plenty of resources online. Consider an Oura ring or something similar to understand your sleep physiology. Apple/Garmin are decent, but not in the same league as a sleep specific tracker like Oura.

No alcohol.

Consider a sauna, cold exposure/plunge, or a combination (contrast therapy).

Do a deep dive on your labs - your PCP might be solid, but many won't offer options to look at more granular tests. A good functional medicine physician can help, but do your homework (some are great, some veer too far from evidenced care). Independently, you can consider a subscription to something like Function Health, where you can select numerous options to assess; Function will also provide guidance on dietary changes, supplements, etc.


I hope this helps.

Deep dive on the labs is what I posted here for. What should I be asking to have done besides the basics?

I do drink a lot of water (measured usually 80oz minimum. Dislike LMNT...too salty. I am pretty sensitive to salt. Doesn't take much to blow away my taste buds.

Sleep well and use a tracker to monitor.

[eleven11]

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Deep dive on the labs is what I posted here for. What should I be asking to have done besides the basics?

I do drink a lot of water (measured usually 80oz minimum. Dislike LMNT...too salty. I am pretty sensitive to salt. Doesn't take much to blow away my taste buds.

Sleep well and use a tracker to monitor.

I assume you have, but get the basic/foundation stuff (CBC, BMP/CMP). I'd consider a thyroid panel in basic stuff, so get that if not. Thinking about basic labs (cholesterol panel) - I don't think it was discussed above, but if you are taking a statin (e.g. Lipitor, Crestor) for cholesterol issues, it can lead to myalgias.

Next, I'd want to see your Vitamin D, Iron (and Ferritin), B12 and Copper. Magnesium is also important, but levels can fluctuate more quickly making it harder to know if it's implicated. Related - even with normal levels, I believe in taking daily magnesium. If deficiencies are found, read carefully before simply taking a supplement, as many of them interact and need to co-supplement (e.g. Vit D/K2, Copper/Zinc).

I don't think caffeine has been mentioned, but understand that chronic caffeine use can significantly affect many vitamin/electrolytes. It's tough if you have a chronic and high-level caffeine dependency (guilty myself), but experiment with a slow wean/reduction.

While not necessarily DOMS specific, get a hormone panel, at least testosterone (if you haven't).

Finally, if you can't find a smoking gun with the aforementioned labs, consider a rheumatological/autoimmune panel - RF, ANA, ESR, CRP, etc.