[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

What an utterly pitiful commentary on our world today. We’ve gone from a country and world of people who were creative and innovative to a world of brain dead people who think if they made a TikTok video they actually did something useful.

Agreed!

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

There’s a not insignificant group of “future watchers” who predict EVs will not survive for the long term future. Largely because their development is not organic to market demands, but rather it’s being forced on the market by governments. And electric has way more problems than the powers pushing it are willing to acknowledge.

The problems are massive, but masses eat it up like an all EV world will actually solve anything. Thankfully we’re seeing the tide change and companies are backing off the EV push because they simply aren’t selling as intended.

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I don’t. Because I never drive on a closed course, straight drag strip. I drive in the real world on a daily basis and on a track or autocross course on various occasions. I don’t care about straight line acceleration. I care about useful, fun driving dynamics.

What he fails to acknowledge is no matter how much power and torque a vehicle has, the returns are diminishing and people adjust. It doesn’t take long for a high horsepower/torque vehicle to lose its appeal. The thirst never ends. Outright speed and power never satiate for long. Passion and the drive do.

[ubercruise]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I didn’t just show up here last year. I’ve been here for nineteen years. I assure you I am well aware of how to use the multi quote feature and when to use it.

I'm not very assured. Four posts in a row seems like a very good time to make use of it lol. You can also use the edit/delete features to combine and clean up posts.

[ubercruise]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

Well, that just shows you have some pretty poor powers of deduction. If you cared to do the slightest amount of research before flapping your jaws you would quickly see that I multi quote the vast majority of the time. And I do it when it’s appropriate and I don’t do it when it’s not appropriate.

Yeah because I'm going to research your post history extensively to find examples of you multi-quoting, when I'm just pointing out that the four-in-a-row posts you literally just made are poor forum etiquette. It's easy to just edit it and say "whoops" instead of randomly getting all defensive about it. But sheesh didn't think I'd strike this big of a nerve. I actually enjoy having discourse with those who have viewpoints different from mine, so I don't love needing to use the ignore button.

Back to the topic at hand, if anyone even remembers what this thread was about... sorry for derailing. I for one can't wait to see the next generation of BEV powertrains that BMW is rolling out, even in just concept form. I used to think I needed a gas engine and a manual to feel excited about a car, but turns out I was wrong. Personal opinion, obviously not everyone feels that way but I don't miss my old gas car like I thought I would. An ICE weekend car would be fine, but for my daily duties I just prefer the smoothness of and raw torque of an EV. Still can have plenty of fun and blasting off in silence still hasn't gotten old to me.

[BMWbiker]

I wonder how many of those participating in this discussion, miss having a separate spark advance from carbureted throttle valves. Or carburetors, for that matter. Or manual timing. Or.…

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by BMWbiker

I wonder how many of those participating in this discussion, miss having a separate spark advance from carbureted throttle valves. Or carburetors, for that matter. Or manual timing. Or.…

Those references aren’t exactly analogous. That’s akin to throwing airbags or seatbelts into the mix.

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I’ve rebuilt more than one carburetor. No, I don’t miss them. False equivalency. Not the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Hmmmm. You didn’t have to reply to my message, and thereby associate yourself with this crowd. But you did.

Among the population of the world the group who believe the world is flat as opposed to the group who believe the world is round is, in fact, infinitesimally insignificant.

I don’t remember who said the following—perhaps Issac Asimov? Something to the effect that: There are those who believe that the earth is flat. There are those who believe that the earth is round, a sphere. Both groups are wrong. However, those who believe that the earth is flat, are far more egregiously wrong than those who believe that the earth is round.

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Those references aren’t exactly analogous. That’s akin to throwing airbags or seatbelts into the mix.

It is analogous, in the sense that technology, in general, continues to improve, yet many do not like the improvements.

I know a man who used to drive his family and himself to church on sunny Sundays in his Model T, that his father purchased new. Bully for him. I wish I’d made the opportunity to join him.

He did have to contend with separate spark advance from carburetor throttle, and many other factors. He is a retired Ford engineer, so he can both rebuild those carbs, and fabricate replacement parts as needed. Oh, and he also owned a thoroughly modern (as of its assembly) Ford Flex, and another car (also a Ford).

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by BMWbiker

It is analogous, in the sense that technology, in general, continues to improve, yet many do not like the improvements.

I know a man who used to drive his family and himself to church on sunny Sundays in his Model T, that his father purchased new. Bully for him. I wish I’d made the opportunity to join him.

He did have to contend with separate spark advance from carburetor throttle, and many other factors. He is a retired Ford engineer, so he can both rebuild those carbs, and fabricate replacement parts as needed. Oh, and he also owned a thoroughly modern (as of its assembly) Ford Flex, and another car (also a Ford).

Just because a person is opposed to EV’s…..at least from the perspective of having them shoved down our collective throats in the name of the environment …doesn’t mean they are opposed to technological advances in general. The EV issue is far more political than anything else, and that is why people are so diametrically opposed when EV’s are being discussed.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

I don’t. Because I never drive on a closed course, straight drag strip. I drive in the real world on a daily basis and on a track or autocross course on various occasions. I don’t care about straight line acceleration. I care about useful, fun driving dynamics.

Since most of your driving away from the race track is still full of acceleration, slowing down (with virtually no brake wear), the electric car still excels. Some may wish for piston powered blenders, vacuum cleaners, shavers, etc. But they are better electric. Quieter, smoother, no maintenance, no oil leaks, no exhaust pollution. After driving a higher powered EV a gas powered car simply feels laggy and primitive. Kind of how people wish a Ferrari or Porsche Turbo had manual transmission and complain about DCTs as being un-pure. Yet you don't see F1 drivers complaining about it.

[cfm56d7b]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

As soon as I can get a quad motor I will be all over it

I would add “quad motor plus the software which will provide nearly limitless torque vectoring”. Now it gets interesting.

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by BimmerMan33

The future is mostly electric!
Most of us “enthusiasts” will take time to convert..
Current teenagers & younger (future BMW customers) will get this pretty much without hesitation..

As we get older, maybe lazier too, we might convince ourselves to use an EV during the week & save a old manual transmission ICE car for weekend/fun drives.. maybe..

i4 is my DD and cayman for the weekends and track days…I want to replace the i4 with another EV in the next couple years but want more range these new BMWs may fit that bill. Let’s hope they don’t trash the interior like they did on the new x3.

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Just because a person is opposed to EV’s…..at least from the perspective of having them shoved down our collective throats in the name of the environment …doesn’t mean they are opposed to technological advances in general. The EV issue is far more political than anything else, and that is why people are so diametrically opposed when EV’s are being discussed.

How are EVs being forced down our throats? Legacy manufacturers like BMW offer EVs and ICE and have more ICE options. No one is forcing people to buy EVs in 2025 in the US and it most of the world.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by OUGrad05

How are EVs being forced down our throats? Legacy manufacturers like BMW offer EVs and ICE and have more ICE options. No one is forcing people to buy EVs in 2025 in the US and it most of the world.

If you have to ask that question, you’re not paying attention to the regulated world around you. I could cite a number of government implementations - both current and planned - designed to push EV’s, but I don’t have the time nor the energy to get into it right now. Most companies are dialing back EV production…..and that goes for everything from Toyota to BMW to Porsche.

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

If you have to ask that question, you’re not paying attention to the regulated world around you. I could cite a number of government implementations - both current and planned - designed to push EV’s, but I don’t have the time nor the energy to get into it right now. Most companies are dialing back EV production…..and that goes for everything from Toyota to BMW to Porsche.

Right I’m well aware of the government. You still have choice is my point and a LOT of choice.
We absolutely should be moving to cleaner vehicles and if incentives and legislation on EVs bother you then we need to truly level the playing field which means cutting all incentives for fossil fuels as well.

In reality that simply won’t happen and we both know it. We need incentives to increase EV adoption and level the playing field with ICE.

Should ICE be banned? Not in my opinion.

[LuisBoston]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Just because a person is opposed to EV’s…..at least from the perspective of having them shoved down our collective throats in the name of the environment …doesn’t mean they are opposed to technological advances in general. The EV issue is far more political than anything else, and that is why people are so diametrically opposed when EV’s are being discussed.

EVs are only political because of oil industry influence and lobbying
Same with wind power and solar power.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

There’s a not insignificant group of “future watchers” who predict EVs will not survive for the long term future. Largely because their development is not organic to market demands, but rather it’s being forced on the market by governments. And electric has way more problems than the powers pushing it are willing to acknowledge.

No one is forcing EVs down your throat. And in fact, the government is subsidizing the gasoline you use. Would be nice if EVs actually got those trillions of dollars..

"Fossil fuels benefited from record subsidies of $13m (£10.3m) a minute in 2022, according to the International Monetary Fund, despite being the primary cause of the climate crisis.

The IMF analysis found the total subsidies for oil, gas and coal in 2022 were $7tn (£5.5tn). That is equivalent to 7% of global GDP and almost double what the world spends on education. Countries have pledged to phase out subsidies for years to ensure the price of fossil fuels reflects their true environmental costs, but have achieved little to date."

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

The problems are massive, but masses eat it up like an all EV world will actually solve anything. Thankfully we’re seeing the tide change and companies are backing off the EV push because they simply aren’t selling as intended. .

I’m genuinely baffled at how people can act so willfully ignorant about progress—especially when it threatens their outdated worldview.

You really think an all-EV world solves nothing?
Cool. So eliminating 4 billion tons of CO₂ annually is meaningless? That’s HALF of all CO₂ emissions. Why rising CO₂ is bad? Just check an high school book, there are very simple experiments.You can make sugar solution and yeast in a container, that would create CO2. And you can put an empty tank next to him. Stick a thermometer in both. Watch the one with CO2 getting warmer much faster. Not a hoax.

Cutting down toxic exhaust—CO, NOx, soot, benzene, SO₂—that causes cancer and contaminates our soil, water, and food, that’s somehow irrelevant too? Serves to NOTHING? Just freaking google one of them. Let me do it for you as your bubble doesn’t have any real information. Here’s benzene:

Benzene is a known human carcinogen, classified by agencies like the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The primary way it causes harm is through inhalation or skin absorption, after which it enters the bloodstream and interferes with bone marrow function, damaging the DNA of blood-forming cells. Over time, this can lead to serious blood disorders, most notably leukemia, particularly acute myeloid leukemia (AML). Long-term exposure, even at relatively low levels, increases the risk. Benzene is present in gasoline, vehicle exhaust, industrial emissions, and even cigarette smoke—so yes, it’s not only toxic but actively dangerous in real-world exposure levels.

Show me the Science that suggests soot, carbon monoxide, benzene does nothing to humans. I’ll wait.

WTF do innocent people need to breath this stuff because of ignorant tools can’t learn anything, and follow fossil fuel propaganda like zombies?
So removing just this from air is NOTHING? These pollutants aren’t abstract. They’re killing people slowly, and you’re here hand-waving them like it’s a minor inconvenience?

Lead was banned from gasoline decades ago and it’s still in our environment. That’s how deep the damage runs. So no, transitioning to EVs isn’t perfect, but pretending it’s pointless is intellectually lazy at best.

This is India. During Covid lockdowns, residents of this town, 100 miles from Everest SAW EVEREST FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 30 YEARS BECAUSE EXHAUST GAS WAS GONE. This is NOTHING?


If this is your idea of a smart take, maybe it’s time to revisit high school science—or just admit you’re not interested in solutions, only in being loud.

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

Just because a person is opposed to EV’s…..at least from the perspective of having them shoved down our collective throats in the name of the environment …doesn’t mean they are opposed to technological advances in general. The EV issue is far more political than anything else, and that is why people are so diametrically opposed when EV’s are being discussed.

The flip side of that is: how many people are opposed to EVs merely because they believe that they’re being shoved down their throats?

I’ve been quite open about my opinions about EVs: they are becoming increasingly impressive; however, they are not yet for me. I can’t charge them at home or work. I can’t charge them reliably where I often drive. They lose range in the winter. Etc.

My guess is that my next car will be an EV. We’ll see.

Many of those who are opposed to EVs, cite as desirable the very things that make an EV superior to ICE vehicles. They want to shift manually, but EVs have no need for manual transmissions or (for the most part) automatic ones. They miss the smell of noxious fluids (gasoline, oil, etc.), which are noxious and are unnecessary. They talk about torque bands, turbo lag, etc., when an electric motor’s maximum torque is at 0 RPM. And so much more.

[NotSharocks]

I'd never thought I'd be saying this but at least Teslas look good.

This thing has the lines of a designer who did some lines lol

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by BMWbiker

The flip side of that is: how many people are opposed to EVs merely because they believe that they’re being shoved down their throats?

I’ve been quite open about my opinions about EVs: they are becoming increasingly impressive; however, they are not yet for me. I can’t charge them at home or work. I can’t charge them reliably where I often drive. They lose range in the winter. Etc.

My guess is that my next car will be an EV. We’ll see.

Many of those who are opposed to EVs, cite as desirable the very things that make an EV superior to ICE vehicles. They want to shift manually, but EVs have no need for manual transmissions or (for the most part) automatic ones. They miss the smell of noxious fluids (gasoline, oil, etc.), which are noxious and are unnecessary. They talk about torque bands, turbo lag, etc., when an electric motor’s maximum torque is at 0 RPM. And so much more.

If people actually believe EVs are being shoved down their throats they're clearly just plugged into absurd cable news channels and similar echo chambers. After I bought my i4 I heard the same shit from family. "No one is going to force me to buy an EV!". Ok great, who forced me to buy mine? No one.

EVs make up 7, 8, 9% of sales in the US? A bit higher in Europe. That's hardly force not mention we still have significantly more ICE options.

Your point on transmissions is a good one too. Reality is automatic and dual clutch boxes are much better than manual transmission cars now. Granted I still LOVE driving manual transmission cars but they are a novelty and WE as enthusiasts are certainly a minority of car buyers especially in 2025. EVs don't need gearboxes really. They're just a better overall product, the use doesn't work for everyone, as you stated for your situation. But where they work they are better.

That doesn't mean I want one as my enthusiast car, if I was still at the point where I needed a do it all vehicle (track days, weekend drives, going to work, etc) I'd probably not have an EV and instead I'd have an M3.

I'm at a point where I can have multiple vehicles so for me the EV is great for daily needs, as it is for most people at this point, but there are still use cases where they won't work and some folks simply want the tech to improve, then you have the folks who will never buy an EV because they aren't "Woke" or won't be "forced" to. Ok well they'll miss out on better daily transportation, their decision.

We could get to a point years down the road where we don't have much choice for mainstream vehicles. I do think it's highly likely that within 25 years 80-90% of vehicles sold will be EV, battery tech is continuing to improve, renewable energy costs are continuing to drop. Easy to get US oil reserves are continuing to shrink as we pump it out of the ground and EVs will be a natural choice.

[BMWbiker]

Originally Posted by OUGrad05

If people actually believe EVs are being shoved down their throats they're clearly just plugged into absurd cable news channels and similar echo chambers. After I bought my i4 I heard the same shit from family. "No one is going to force me to buy an EV!". Ok great, who forced me to buy mine? No one.

EVs make up 7, 8, 9% of sales in the US? A bit higher in Europe. That's hardly force not mention we still have significantly more ICE options.

Your point on transmissions is a good one too. Reality is automatic and dual clutch boxes are much better than manual transmission cars now. Granted I still LOVE driving manual transmission cars but they are a novelty and WE as enthusiasts are certainly a minority of car buyers especially in 2025. EVs don't need gearboxes really. They're just a better overall product, the use doesn't work for everyone, as you stated for your situation. But where they work they are better.

That doesn't mean I want one as my enthusiast car, if I was still at the point where I needed a do it all vehicle (track days, weekend drives, going to work, etc) I'd probably not have an EV and instead I'd have an M3.

I'm at a point where I can have multiple vehicles so for me the EV is great for daily needs, as it is for most people at this point, but there are still use cases where they won't work and some folks simply want the tech to improve, then you have the folks who will never buy an EV because they aren't "Woke" or won't be "forced" to. Ok well they'll miss out on better daily transportation, their decision.

We could [...]

Yes.

If my life situation were different as far as charging opportunities and winters are concerned, I would own one of the top two i4 cars today. No, I’ll correct myself: I would have leased one.

I’ve driven in friends’ EVs, ranging from Chevy Bolts, to the BMW i3, to Porsches, with others in between. There is much positive to say about them, especially for those who use them as commuter cars and for local driving.

Re manual transmissions: I used to own only manual transmission cars, back when the manual transmission was superior to the automatic in almost every way other than convenience. My B5 S4 Avant 6MT was a second faster 0-60 MPH, and got significantly better gas mileage, than the auto version, and cost less. But this hasn’t been the case for a while now. Almost all cars that still can be equipped with either transmission, works better with the auto or the DCT than the manual, except for a fun factor of shifting by yourself. The last three cars that I have owned were equipped with automatic transmissions perforce.

I somehow doubt that ICE vehicles will go away anytime soon. I mentioned earlier in this thread the guy I know who owned (or may still own) and drove (drives?) a Model T. That vehicle is a century old, and is still being driven. EVs may supplant ICE vehicles, or maybe some other technology will do so, or maybe the entire paradigm will change (e.g. better mass transit?). Time will tell.