[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

MAX would have lost badly should he have held his ground with damage to floor and aero and possibly other things from a wheels hit from PIA, such was his forceful turn entry with both his right wheels off the track.

The best has yet to come ..

Just wait for it (!)

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by dfox

you can watch videos all you want, the telemetry tells the story.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...05398IOGfi0vks


Max divebombed and had no intention of making the corner. His plan was to "get ahead" of Piastri at the apex, run off the track, blame Piastri, and then let the Stewards decide. And they did. And Max lost the gamble. We should all just move along with life now... lol.

Piastri had his steering wheel (still)! straight (12-O'clock) in the middle of the turn.
Then every fool just knows what Piastri's mission was ..

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

The best has yet to come ..

Just wait for it (!)

Like MAX I'm not even blinking

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by G30M

my understanding is RB got clarification from FIA pre race, and Max planned his move (as you see in videos of past moves which have not been penalized), he made his move and the stewards penalized, so he was angry. don't know what exactly was discussed with the FIA but it's to do with that. Oscar's pass was clean. he was unhappy with something that was discussed between RB and FIA.

Just imagine Verstappen having a "you don't understand" boss chat with Piastri like Senna did with young Schumacher. Senna, triple WDC back then, spoke his mind directly to Schumacher. The "you just messed with the wrong guy" body language of Senna was quite intimidating. Formidable driver, but at times Machiavellian.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by MoeTE87

The more I watch the turn 1 incident the more I believe the Stewards got it wrong. As you can see, Oscar had so much real estate to make the turn but still kept driving straight into Max, Max clearly had a wheel head but had to go off because there wasn't anywhere else for him to go. I think for the future and any turn 1 incidents like that..just let them freakin drive. It's either a penalty or not. No half assed penalty.

The thing is, the organisers are a bit secretive about the recently changed rules.

Conclusion: in the end, Verstappen and RBR called it a day at Jeddah (no review request because it risked to be pointless) but will request further clarification about the rules. And Verstappen will fully exploit the rules to his advantage next time around. What happened at Jeddah won't be forgotten.

A couple of considerations (with some room for hesitational 'ifs' and 'buts'):

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dfox

Max divebombed and had no intention of making the corner. His plan was to "get ahead" of Piastri at the apex, run off the track, blame Piastri, and then let the Stewards decide. And they did. And Max lost the gamble. We should all just move along with life now... lol.

Post-race, Piastri admitted that he had braked very late in Turn 1. Turn 1 heads to the left. Piastri was driving on the inside. By braking very late, he 'closed the door', requiring Verstappen on the outside to either brake or to crash into him or to take evasive action (what he did).

I don't claim that Piastri wasn't entitled to close the door, but Piastri was the one who divebombed, making his car an obstacle for a competitor to negotiate Turn 1 heading left. Get your facts straight, dfox.

And to be clear, as already commented, in my view Verstappen had to give the P1 track position to Piastri after cutting Turn 1.

For the record: in the stills pictured below, Piastri was piloting the orange car, elbows out, not Verstappen.

And if there had been a gravel trap at Turn 1, both Verstappen (4 wheels off track - beyond the kerb) and Piastri (2 wheels off track - beyond the kerb) would have been crawling through sand and pebbles, potentially damaging their floors. Also Antonelli cut Turn 1.





















Senna divebombing Brundle in 1983 (F3):

Apart from Senna and Verstappen, also examples exist of Hamilton taking questionable liberties when negotiating turns. It's F1, you know:

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Post-race, Piastri admitted that he had braked very late in Turn 1. Turn 1 heads to the left. Piastri was driving on the inside. By braking very late, he 'closed the door', requiring Verstappen on the outside to either brake or to crash into him or to take evasive action (what he did).

I don't claim that Piastri wasn't entitled to close the door, but Piastri was the one who divebombed, making his car an obstacle for a competitor to negotiate Turn 1 heading left. Get your facts straight, dfox.

And to be clear, as already commented, in my view Verstappen had to give the P1 track position to Piastri after cutting Turn 1.

For the record: in the stills pictured below, Piastri was piloting the orange car, elbows out, not Verstappen.

And if there had been a gravel trap at Turn 1, both Verstappen (4 wheels off track - beyond the kerb) and Piastri (2 wheels off track - beyond the kerb) would have been crawling through sand and pebbles, potentially damaging their floors. Also Antonelli cut Turn 1.

Piastri really made no attempt to turn the car until he knew Max has nowhere to do nor did he leave Max anything more than a couple feet vs the usual car's width. The line he took was not at all optimal and he should have received an equal penalty for running Max off the track or they should have simply said racing incident and all is negated.

But yet, Piastri will eventually pay dearly for it and I am sure he is not going to like it, and forever he will rethink how he goes about these - which is ultimately the game that will be played.

[Rono63]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Piastri really made no attempt to turn the car until he knew Max has nowhere to do nor did he leave Max anything more than a couple feet vs the usual car's width. The line he took was not at all optimal and he should have received an equal penalty for running Max off the track or they should have simply said racing incident and all is negated.

But yet, Piastri will eventually pay dearly for it and I am sure he is not going to like it, and forever he will rethink how he goes about these - which is ultimately the game that will be played.

Oscar is not Lando and is not Intimidated by Max. I don’t think he is worried about some kind of pay back.

Max has ran other drivers off the track his whole career, especially in 2021 and last year to Lando.

You Max fans need to quit crying about it.

By the way Horner said RB had the fastest car in Saudi. Where was the Max Factor, he was unable to catch Oscar.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Rono63

Oscar is not Lando and is not Intimidated by Max. I don’t think he is worried about some kind of pay back.

Max has ran other drivers off the track his whole career, especially in 2021 and last year to Lando.

You Max fans need to quit crying about it.

By the way Horner said RB had the fastest car in Saudi. Where was the Max Factor, he was unable to catch Oscar.

Well, the data proves Max was not the fastest car nor the second fastest car. I think he'd have won sans the penalty, but they were not the quickest car there. The data shows Ferrari actually was.
The Max factor is there. The car is nearly undriveable yet Max is literally doing what no other driver could in the same car. Any other driver it's lucky to be finishing top 10 let alone landing a win in JP and consistently up at the top.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Rono63

Oscar is not Lando and is not Intimidated by Max. I don’t think he is worried about some kind of pay back.

Max has ran other drivers off the track his whole career, especially in 2021 and last year to Lando.

You Max fans need to quit crying about it.

By the way Horner said RB had the fastest car in Saudi. Where was the Max Factor, he was unable to catch Oscar.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/a...7qu80FcK5CdPbJ

Horner hails ‘most competitive race to date’ for Red Bull as he insists 'we were quicker' than McLaren in Jeddah

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Get your facts straight, dfox.

What I stated was fact, taken directly from the telemetry. Max carried more speed through turn one, while on cool medium tires, while carrying a whole race worth of fuel, than he did during qualifying on warmed up soft tires and low fuel. That's a divebomb, period.

Also, I never said Piastri didn't divebomb, in fact, I didn't address Piastri's approach to the corner at all. All I was addressing is that Max had no intention of making the corner, it didn't matter where Piastri was.

Stewards agreed. So yeah.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dfox

What I stated was fact, taken directly from the telemetry. Max carried more speed through turn one, while on cool medium tires, while carrying a whole race worth of fuel, than he did during qualifying on warmed up soft tires and low fuel. That's a divebomb, period.
Also, I never said Piastri didn't divebomb, in fact, I didn't address Piastri's approach to the corner at all. All I was addressing is that Max had no intention of making the corner, it didn't matter where Piastri was.
Stewards agreed. So yeah.

Verstappen started from pole position, not from P2. When the lights went out, he didn't intend to go park his car in Turn 1 to go get groceries. He raced towards Turn 1 on the outside. Piastri (P2) divebombed Turn 1 on the inside, making his car an obstacle for Verstappen (or for any other driver who would have started from P1, except maybe for the other fast McLaren car) to get through Turn 1 as P1. From hindsight, once the lights went out, Verstappen should have impeded Piastri more with more aggressively steering to the left, making his Red Bull car an obstacle for Piastri's McLaren to defend track position + by doing so, avoid Piastri to go full throttle. Russell (P3) could have benefited from the Verstappen/Piastri bickering, but would have also been on the outside upon negotiating Turn 1.

Piastri's car became an obstacle for Verstappen's car in Turn 1. Not the other way around. Don't invent stuff. And yes, Piastri was entitled to do what he did: he managed to keep the advantage of being on the inside with his fast McLaren upon approaching Turn 1 whilst getting alongside Verstappen - that's smart racing. I don't claim that Piastri "forced Verstappen off track", but rather that he managed to "lock (up) Verstappen in the outside corner", offering Verstappen the classic choice when getting divebombed: either slam the brakes (yield/back off), crash into each other or leave the track.

Anyways, let's all agree that it's a good thing for the sport to have Piastri doing the things he does. I said it before and say it again: Piastri is a future WDC winner.

I expect Verstappen to steer more aggressively into Piastri's direction if he's 1 track position ahead of Piastri on the same row of the start grid, forcing Piastri to lift the throttle or even brake. Just a matter of time.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Verstappen started from pole position, not from P2. When the lights went out, he didn't intend to go park his car in Turn 1 to go get groceries. He raced towards Turn 1 on the outside. Piastri (P2) divebombed Turn 1 on the inside, making his car an obstacle for Verstappen (or for any other driver who would have started from P1, except maybe for the other fast McLaren car) to get through Turn 1 as P1. From hindsight, once the lights went out, Verstappen should have impeded Piastri more with more aggressively steering to the left, making his Red Bull car an obstacle for Piastri's McLaren to defend track position + by doing so, avoid Piastri to go full throttle. Russell (P3) could have benefited from the Verstappen/Piastri bickering, but would have also been on the outside upon negotiating Turn 1.

Piastri's car became an obstacle for Verstappen's car in Turn 1. Not the other way around. Don't invent stuff. And yes, Piastri was entitled to do what he did: he managed to keep the advantage of being on the inside with his fast McLaren upon approaching Turn 1 whilst getting alongside Verstappen - that's smart racing. I don't claim that Piastri "forced Verstappen off track", but rather that he managed to "lock (up) Verstappen in the outside corner", offering Verstappen the classic choice when getting divebombed: either slam the brakes (yield/back off), crash into each other or leave the track.

Anyways, let's all agree that it's a good thing for the sport to have Piastri doing the things he does. I said it before and say it again: Piastri is a future WDC winner.

I expect Verstappen to steer more aggressively into Piastri's direction if he's 1 track position ahead of Piastri on the same row of the start grid, forcing Piastri to lift the throttle or even brake. Just a matter of time.

I'm really having a hard time understanding your perspective here. You keep saying that Piastri blocked Max and he's the reason Max ran off track. Piastri was ahead of Max going into the corner, he had the better launch. Sucks to blow a race start, but Max did. Are you disagreeing that Max carried too much speed into turn 1? You think that a significantly heavier car with less sticky cold tires was going to hold the same line as his pole time while going faster?

Take Piastri out of the situation, Max couldn't have made it around turn 2 with the speed that he carried into turn 1. He never intended to.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Verstappen started from pole position, not from P2. When the lights went out, he didn't intend to go park his car in Turn 1 to go get groceries. He raced towards Turn 1 on the outside. Piastri (P2) divebombed Turn 1 on the inside, making his car an obstacle for Verstappen (or for any other driver who would have started from P1, except maybe for the other fast McLaren car) to get through Turn 1 as P1. From hindsight, once the lights went out, Verstappen should have impeded Piastri more with more aggressively steering to the left, making his Red Bull car an obstacle for Piastri's McLaren to defend track position + by doing so, avoid Piastri to go full throttle. Russell (P3) could have benefited from the Verstappen/Piastri bickering, but would have also been on the outside upon negotiating Turn 1.

Piastri's car became an obstacle for Verstappen's car in Turn 1. Not the other way around. Don't invent stuff. And yes, Piastri was entitled to do what he did: he managed to keep the advantage of being on the inside with his fast McLaren upon approaching Turn 1 whilst getting alongside Verstappen - that's smart racing. I don't claim that Piastri "forced Verstappen off track", but rather that he managed to "lock (up) Verstappen in the outside corner", offering Verstappen the classic choice when getting divebombed: either slam the brakes (yield/back off), crash into each other or leave the track.

Anyways, let's all agree that it's a good thing for the sport to have Piastri doing the things he does. I said it before and say it again: Piastri is a future WDC winner.

I expect Verstappen to steer more aggressively into Piastri's direction if he's 1 track position ahead of Piastri on the same row of the start grid, forcing Piastri to lift the throttle or even brake. Just a matter of time.

Seems like pole driver should be able to pick which side of the track they want to start on. They earned it

[Rono63]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Seems like pole driver should be able to pick which side of the track they want to start on. They earned it

I have thought that for years, seems like P1 always has the bad line into the first turn.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Rono63

I have thought that for years, seems like P1 always has the bad line into the first turn.

Suzuka 1990. Crucial race for the 1990 season. Senna had requested to invert P1 position on the grid. It was orally granted. FISA (later FIA) boss Jean-Marie Balestre (French, autocratic and having a better relationship with his fellow countryman Prost than with Senna) decided to keep the start position. Senna angry. The rest is history: Senna intentionally crashed into Prost in Turn 1. Senna WDC.

Journalist: "It's because the pole position is on the wrong side of the track here ? You wanted to change that."
Senna: "Absolutely. You fight to break a [expletive] to be on pole, and then they put you on the wrong side of the circuit."

[G30M]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Verstappen started from pole position, not from P2. When the lights went out, he didn't intend to go park his car in Turn 1 to go get groceries. He raced towards Turn 1 on the outside. Piastri (P2) divebombed Turn 1 on the inside, making his car an obstacle for Verstappen (or for any other driver who would have started from P1, except maybe for the other fast McLaren car) to get through Turn 1 as P1. From hindsight, once the lights went out, Verstappen should have impeded Piastri more with more aggressively steering to the left, making his Red Bull car an obstacle for Piastri's McLaren to defend track position + by doing so, avoid Piastri to go full throttle. Russell (P3) could have benefited from the Verstappen/Piastri bickering, but would have also been on the outside upon negotiating Turn 1.

Piastri's car became an obstacle for Verstappen's car in Turn 1. Not the other way around. Don't invent stuff. And yes, Piastri was entitled to do what he did: he managed to keep the advantage of being on the inside with his fast McLaren upon approaching Turn 1 whilst getting alongside Verstappen - that's smart racing. I don't claim that Piastri "forced Verstappen off track", but rather that he managed to "lock (up) Verstappen in the outside corner", offering Verstappen the classic choice when getting divebombed: either slam the brakes (yield/back off), crash into each other or leave the track.

Anyways, let's all agree that it's a good thing for the sport to have Piastri doing the things he does. I said it before and say it again: Piastri is a future WDC winner.

I expect Verstappen to steer more aggressively into Piastri's direction if he's 1 track position ahead of Piastri on the same row of the start grid, forcing Piastri to lift the throttle or even brake. Just a matter of time.

A lot of words from our Mod.

When Verstappen was asked about Oscar after the race this is what he said

"He delivers when he has to, barely makes mistakes. At the end of the day, Oscar is using his talent, and that’s great to see."

Verstappen approves. No?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by G30M

A lot of words from our Mod.

When Verstappen was asked about Oscar after the race this is what he said

"He delivers when he has to, barely makes mistakes. At the end of the day, Oscar is using his talent, and that’s great to see."

Verstappen approves. No?

Earlier this week I posted a video of Verstappen praising Piastri (see below). That's by no means incompatible with his criticism about the penalty he got awarded.

If Verstappen would have been in Piastri's shoes inside the fast McLaren starting from P2, undoubtedly he would have equally divebombed the race leader likewise. As commented before, expect Verstappen to do the same to Piastri later this season if he gets the chance. You will see, it will happen. And commentators will make the link with Jeddah 2025 Turn 1.

And as I already commented, in my view Verstappen had to let Piastri pass after cutting Turn 1 + already in Summer 2022, I praised Piastri as future WDC material (https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1943433).

So what's your point ?

Originally Posted by Artemis

If he considers that the competitor cannot be blamed, it's OK for him.

But if he considers that he got short-changed, he will strike someday.

His reaction post-race masked anger and frustration (especially because he suggested that he was not allowed to speak his mind). But he also expressed appreciation for Piastri's rise.

"Max Verstappen refuses to explain frustration at Saudi Arabian GP penalty for incident with Oscar Piastri"
https://www.skysports.com/amp/f1/new...-oscar-piastri

Jan 2022:

Originally Posted by Artemis

The way to F1 is also long and expensive.

For example F3 and F2 winner Oscar Piastri (Australia): https://www.smh.com.au/sport/motorsp...07-p59ffq.html

July 2022:

Originally Posted by Artemis

About time for Oscar Piastri (Australia) (21 years) to get the F1 seat he deserves. Capable of scoring many podiums if someday he manages to get a seat inside a Red Bull, Ferrari or Mercedes.

Aug 2022:

Originally Posted by Artemis

With Alonso's seat up for grabs at Alpine, Oscar Piastri can at last enter Formula 1 in 2023.

Calibre: Leclerc, Russell, Sainz and Verstappen.



Dedicated training in 2022 by Alpine (English from 01:45 onwards):

Aug 2022:

Originally Posted by Artemis

If Alpine loses Piastri to McLaren, they should kick themselves for their major mistake of messing with a super talent. Not saying that "Ocon - Piastri" is like "Kyvat - Verstappen", but Alpine should not have wasted the 2022 season for Piastri. If this guy gets a good F1 car, he's capable of spicing F1 with nice battles with the very best.

[3798j]

Find it interesting that after Piastri pulls off a textbook Verstappen "I pass or we crash" move (on Verstappen no less) that some of the Verstappen fans here find it unacceptable. Points to a belief that only Verstappen is applauded for an "elbows out" maneuver...and that people believe Verstappen can't/won't tolerate it either. Enlightening and laughable.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by 3798j

Find it interesting that after Piastri pulls off a textbook Verstappen "I pass or we crash" move (on Verstappen no less) that some of the Verstappen fans here find it unacceptable. Points to a belief that only Verstappen is applauded for an "elbows out" maneuver...and that people believe Verstappen can't/won't tolerate it either. Enlightening and laughable.

I think the exasperating thing is, if positions were reversed, and Max had made the same move Pia did, it would have been Max getting a penalty for pushing someone off track as we have seen. So that is the thing I find unacceptable. I am ok with elbows out racing in general, but it needs to be consistent. The problem is mostly every driver (except for a couple), and the FIA don't want racing, especially not hard racing. They want guys gingerly driving around a track and are watering down the series. Just wait for the Nascar (don't watch it) style 'playoff series' in a few years.
At this point, they might as well move to spec cars or extremely close to spec with minimal formula engineering. At least that way you'd consistently get competitive racing - but the latter is something most don't want either because they'd never beat Max in equal cars since they can barely beat him when their car(s) are significantly faster.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

...Just wait for the Nascar (don't watch it) style 'playoff series' in a few years.
At this point, they might as well move to spec cars or extremely close to spec with minimal formula engineering...

From an occasional NASCAR viewer let's hope not. Only really need to watch the last ten laps of any race. The rest is just commercials, yellow flags for hotdog wrappers and childish "Crank it Up" segments. A$$CAR's championship, decided on the last of the year, is random and ridiculA$$

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Earlier this week I posted a video of Verstappen praising Piastri (see below). That's by no means incompatible with his criticism about the penalty he got awarded.

If Verstappen would have been in Piastri's shoes inside the fast McLaren starting from P2, undoubtedly he would have equally divebombed the race leader likewise. As commented before, expect Verstappen to do the same to Piastri later this season if he gets the chance. You will see, it will happen. And commentators will make the link with Jeddah 2025 Turn 1.

And as I already commented, in my view Verstappen had to let Piastri pass after cutting Turn 1 + already in Summer 2022, I praised Piastri as future WDC material (https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1943433).

So what's your point ?

Pia def did well in the juniors, but he was driving a Prema (easily the fastest and best car by material amount) and a rather lackluster field of talent. Lance Stroll also dominated F4 and F3 with Prema cars. Not saying Pia is Str but winning was easy as can be with a Prema and any decent driver would have also won given that car. Pia as I have said is a guy who is good and fast when the car is good and fast but I would guarantee he'd do rather poorly driving the R18/19/20/21 just as anyone else who is not Max has.